Power snatch weight question...

...prolly super subjective, but thought I'd ask.  What is a good power snatch weight?  If I dead singles at 495 (yes, I've lost a bit over summer layoff)...anyone got a reasonable guess as to what my power snatch should be?

I ask because last week I was pulling 60kg (+bar) for power snatches and they felt tough, in that getting that snap lockout overhead didn't work so well.  (Had to press a couple of em.)

(I am estimating that is about what, 175lbs?)

Add these into my work outs on third day as part of my attempt to work on speed and full body explosive power.

There is almost no correlation.  Find someone with who knows what to look for and a decent bar.

HAHA... (I got three singles at that, from one last week...is that ok?)  LOL.

Yes I will be starting up the 531 again next week.  Woo Hoo.

Mr. Natural wrote: Catching the bar in a quarter squat sounds about right. FWIW, I've never pulled more than 5 bills, but can usually do about 100k in the power snatch.  I think it's got a bigger carryover to throwing. How wide are you holding the bar?

Third finger on that outter ring.

A couple of additional points:

- Dave B. is known as a very explosive guy with moderate
strength, and his Power Snatch to Deadlift ratio is just
under 0.45, so that is probably a decent ratio to strive
for after all.

- Another well-known example would be Mikhail Kokylaev,
whose best full snatch ranges from 190kg-210kg and whose
deadlift ranges from about 400kg-415kg. Using his all-
time PBs in each lift and assuming he can power snatch
80% of his full snatch, this would result in a Power
Snatch to Deadlift ratio of just .405. While he is a
very accomplished Olympic lifter, he definitely tends
towards the strength end of the speed-strength continuum.

- Finally, it is well-established that peak power occurs
at 30-40% of one's maximum strength. This would suggest
using this percentage of one's deadlift for clean-grip
snatches onto straight legs would be an effective lift
for throwers. Thoughts?

Good topic.  One thing that comes to my mind is the posture of the body during the lift.  You see a ton of heavy deadlifts that have the athlete with a big rounded back and hitching up the legs.  You can't do that in a clean or a snatch or you won't hit the right positions.  Also, those long arms that help reach the bar quickly in a deadlift will be a disadvantage when they have to pull farther to reach lockout in a snatch.  I see a coorelation in my own lifting to be a power or hang snatch as about 50% of my snatch deadlift.

Dave, power snatches and hang snatches are both great lifts and are a great way to warm-up before squats or deadlifts.  I think doing 6 sets of 2 reps with a good weight is a good weight to start.  Then add 5 to 10lbs each week until you cant complete the sets.  Then go to a 8-10 sets of 1 for a few weeks.  I would only increase the weight if you hit every rep crisply and no press-outs.  You may want to start with 135.  If you are pulling from the ground, really watch your posture and hit the right positions.  Josh Roslik would be a good person to explain those as he is a good weightlifter.

I feel compelled to add another comment here - my
apologies!

First, I agree with everything Josh said 100% (although I
will have to take his word with respect to point 4...).

However, for those who do not already possess decent
lifting technique, I was not suggesting what Power Snatch
to Deadlift ratio any given individual will LIKELY have,
but rather an approximate ratio they should STRIVE for if
they include Power Snatches in their training and are
focussed on improving the type of strength most relevant
to throwing.

Again, ASSUMING decent Power Snatch technique (a
prerequisite for this discussion), if your ratio is
relatively low you should focus on improving your speed-
strength and explosiveness (through dynamic lifts,
heaving, jumping and sprinting), while those with an
unusually high ratio would get the most gains by simply
getting stronger (squat and deadlift variations).

This brings up a related point - if you are not
technically decent at the Oly lift variations, don't push
the weights at all until you achieve a reasonable level
of proficiency. If you do, you are just going to hurt
yourself and are not doing anything of benefit.

I think this is one reason some people are of the opinion
that the Oly variations are not a valuable training tool.
To bastardize an old saying: "Power snatches are an
excellent lift for throwers, but whatever that was you
just did certainly isn't!" The critics have a point -
until you can do the lifts properly, stick with box
jumps, medicine ball tosses, and DE squats.

HAHA....great discussion.

I was going for exactly what it seems we are hitting on...if I want to be a decent thrower next year...what should I be looking for out of the lifts.

My deads are still a quest.  But, I realized early last year that I was slow as heck on the field.  In the gym I could heave the 110lb dumbbbells around...but on the field that 56 threw ME around.  I wasn't fast enought to work the throws.  A bit more snap on sheaf, a bit more lift on WOB.

So I am adding a few more whole body explosive moves.  The power snatch is one and the standing BB press is another.  Not sure I have ever figured out hang cleans, always feel so awkward and about to hurt myself on those.

This has been good feedback.

Allllright Dave - that first move of hers REALLY hurt my nose hitting the ground 

Buff - consider spending the off -season fixing that slow thing B4 all else.

Light (60-100lbs)jumpsquats reps 5 or so, lunges , some VERY short fast sprints (uphill/or upstairs is easier on joints), jumprope, D.O.T. drill , etc.

Not alot - done w. the INTENT to move as fast as possible.

Works

 

And I GOTTA meet Josh

LOL...per Pingleton's math I am clearly the least explosive person I know.  My ratio is .33

Josh Roslik wrote: Between Pete's mathing and your Star Trek, someone's gonna shove this thread into a locker.

I don't know, I would say that is a very valuable piece
of data for Duncan. To the extent it's not due to poor
snatching technique, if he can get that ratio up it will
make him a better thrower.

Same with the Power Ratio test (search for it) or just
improving your 16# overhead shot toss. Being big and
strong is a good thing, even a necessary thing if you
want to throw really far, but it isn't sufficient - you
need to be fast too. These kinds of tests help you
determine if your training is really helping you in ways
that will improve your throwing performance.

I would WAY rather be a 250 lb guy who squats 500 but has
a 30" vertical jump and a 56' overhead shot toss than a
290 lb guy who squats over 600 but has a 20" vertical
jump and a 46' overhead shot toss. More strength is
always better, but only if it is the kind of strength
that can actually be applied during the course of a
throw. This will vary between the Open Stone and the
HWFD, but the principle remains the same...

Seriously, though.  To make any compound exercise to work for you, the easiest way from point-a, to point-b, is having a decent training partner or coach.

Running numbers in lieu of setting oneself down the correct path is wasteful and confusing.  

There are plenty of good programs out there, but get the basics down first.

Dave, they are all underground around here. I don't know of any weightlifters around here, I only know of the powerlifters and strongmen. I'll ask around for you and shoot you an email.

To find a good Olympic style weightlifting coach try posting a request here:

http://www.goheavy.com/forums/olympic/

C. Smith wrote:   although I don't know or have any experience with VJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii1Dk2X8Y6w

ya, no vertical street cred at all