Power snatch weight question...
Printed From: Nasgaweb
Category: Nasgaweb Forums
Forum Name: Training
Forum Discription: This forum is for discussion about training for the Scottish Heavy Events.
URL: http://www.nasgaweb.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11469
Printed Date: 3/26/26 at 10:26pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.11 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Power snatch weight question...
Posted By: dl_buffy
Subject: Power snatch weight question...
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 1:31am
|
...prolly super subjective, but thought I'd ask. What is a good power snatch weight? If I dead singles at 495 (yes, I've lost a bit over summer layoff)...anyone got a reasonable guess as to what my power snatch should be? I ask because last week I was pulling 60kg (+bar) for power snatches and they felt tough, in that getting that snap lockout overhead didn't work so well. (Had to press a couple of em.) (I am estimating that is about what, 175lbs?) Add these into my work outs on third day as part of my attempt to work on speed and full body explosive power. |
Replies:
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 1:33am
| OH...and any thoughts on getting lower under the bar? Currently have my knees at about quarter squat on the catch(?). That seems to be ok for my goals, but pretty sure that will limit my progression in weight? |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 3:01am
| There is almost no correlation. Find someone with who knows what to look for and a decent bar. |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 8:06am
You do realize it is December? "Summer" was a long time ago Dave. Get that dead back up slacker. ------------- Robin Walker "The danger in life is not to set a goal too high and never reach it, but to set a goal too low and reach it." GSP quoting Michaelangelo |
dl_buffy wrote:Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 8:44am
|
HAHA... (I got three singles at that, from one last week...is that ok?) LOL. Yes I will be starting up the 531 again next week. Woo Hoo. |
Posted By: Mr. Natural
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 8:48am
| Catching the bar in a quarter squat sounds about right. FWIW, I've never pulled more than 5 bills, but can usually do about 100k in the power snatch. I think it's got a bigger carryover to throwing. How wide are you holding the bar? |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 9:01am
|
Third finger on that outter ring. |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/13/10 at 9:15am
|
As a thrower, I would do your power snatch
variations either to a quarter squat at most or to a jerk-depth split. This will "limit" the amount of weight you can pull, but that's not the point - it's how much POWER you develop. The relationship between your power snatch and your deadlift is going to depend on several factors - primarily your technique on each lift and also whether you tend towards speed-strength or limit strength. I am very strongly inclined towards speed-strength and my best hip snatch is currently 235 lbs to a split vs. just 455 lbs. in a smooth "clean deadlift" off the floor (although I very rarely deadlift in this manner). A fairer comparison would probably be a 220 snatch and my 455 deadlift, for a ratio 0.48. I think a ratio of at least 0.45 would be about right for the average HG thrower. Much less than that and you definitely need to start working on your explosiveness and much more than that and you need to focus on getting stronger. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 12:28am
|
A couple of additional points:
- Dave B. is known as a very explosive guy with moderate strength, and his Power Snatch to Deadlift ratio is just under 0.45, so that is probably a decent ratio to strive for after all. - Another well-known example would be Mikhail Kokylaev, whose best full snatch ranges from 190kg-210kg and whose deadlift ranges from about 400kg-415kg. Using his all- time PBs in each lift and assuming he can power snatch 80% of his full snatch, this would result in a Power Snatch to Deadlift ratio of just .405. While he is a very accomplished Olympic lifter, he definitely tends towards the strength end of the speed-strength continuum. - Finally, it is well-established that peak power occurs at 30-40% of one's maximum strength. This would suggest using this percentage of one's deadlift for clean-grip snatches onto straight legs would be an effective lift for throwers. Thoughts? ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 1:34am
| Yeah. Don't over think it. |
Posted By: Sean Betz
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 1:56am
|
Good topic. One thing that comes to my mind is the posture of the body during the lift. You see a ton of heavy deadlifts that have the athlete with a big rounded back and hitching up the legs. You can't do that in a clean or a snatch or you won't hit the right positions. Also, those long arms that help reach the bar quickly in a deadlift will be a disadvantage when they have to pull farther to reach lockout in a snatch. I see a coorelation in my own lifting to be a power or hang snatch as about 50% of my snatch deadlift. Dave, power snatches and hang snatches are both great lifts and are a great way to warm-up before squats or deadlifts. I think doing 6 sets of 2 reps with a good weight is a good weight to start. Then add 5 to 10lbs each week until you cant complete the sets. Then go to a 8-10 sets of 1 for a few weeks. I would only increase the weight if you hit every rep crisply and no press-outs. You may want to start with 135. If you are pulling from the ground, really watch your posture and hit the right positions. Josh Roslik would be a good person to explain those as he is a good weightlifter. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 4:42am
|
Sean, That's sweet of you to say, but I'm not a "good" weightlifter. But I'm extremely handsome, charming, and smell delicious. If you train both lifts, the better you are at one, the worse you are at the other. That which is good for grinding a weight to hip level, is not EXACTLY what is helpful for throwing and then catching a barbell overhead. What we're looking for is a way to get better at power snatching, right? (in the hopes it converts to good throws). What I say is this: 1. Get a decent bar...trust me. It's worth it for the wear and tear. 2. Find a training partner that snatches at least 100k. AND, importantly, this partner should do it with what looks like a competition-type form (good technique). Then you learn by doing and asking questions. Comparing weights is a huge waste of time spent practicing. In closing, 1. Don't overthink it. 2. Get a training partner and access to a decent bar 3. Deadlift and Snatches are unrelated in terms of predicting eachothers' performance. 4. I am an extremely attractive man. |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 5:08am
|
I feel compelled to add another comment here - my
apologies! First, I agree with everything Josh said 100% (although I will have to take his word with respect to point 4...). However, for those who do not already possess decent lifting technique, I was not suggesting what Power Snatch to Deadlift ratio any given individual will LIKELY have, but rather an approximate ratio they should STRIVE for if they include Power Snatches in their training and are focussed on improving the type of strength most relevant to throwing. Again, ASSUMING decent Power Snatch technique (a prerequisite for this discussion), if your ratio is relatively low you should focus on improving your speed- strength and explosiveness (through dynamic lifts, heaving, jumping and sprinting), while those with an unusually high ratio would get the most gains by simply getting stronger (squat and deadlift variations). This brings up a related point - if you are not technically decent at the Oly lift variations, don't push the weights at all until you achieve a reasonable level of proficiency. If you do, you are just going to hurt yourself and are not doing anything of benefit. I think this is one reason some people are of the opinion that the Oly variations are not a valuable training tool. To bastardize an old saying: "Power snatches are an excellent lift for throwers, but whatever that was you just did certainly isn't!" The critics have a point - until you can do the lifts properly, stick with box jumps, medicine ball tosses, and DE squats. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 5:22am
I'll accept your apology (for whatever), if you accept my apology for being unable to read posts longer than a paragraph. In the future, please break it up a bit. I suggest a picture of a Unicorn or something sparkly.  |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 5:37am
|
HAHA....great discussion. I was going for exactly what it seems we are hitting on...if I want to be a decent thrower next year...what should I be looking for out of the lifts. My deads are still a quest. But, I realized early last year that I was slow as heck on the field. In the gym I could heave the 110lb dumbbbells around...but on the field that 56 threw ME around. So I am adding a few more whole body explosive moves. The power snatch is one and the standing BB press is another. Not sure I have ever figured out hang cleans, always feel so awkward and about to hurt myself on those This has been good feedback. |
I wasn't fast enought to work the throws. A bit more snap on sheaf, a bit more lift on WOB.
.Posted By: Mr. Natural
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 6:15am
|
You could always split the difference and do explosive DLs. Kinda like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DzeG5wwJz4 - this , but heavier, and put mats under the weights (or use bumper plates). |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 10:09am
|
Allllright Dave - that first move of hers REALLY hurt my nose hitting the ground Buff - consider spending the off -season fixing that slow thing B4 all else. Light (60-100lbs)jumpsquats reps 5 or so, lunges , some VERY short fast sprints (uphill/or upstairs is easier on joints), jumprope, D.O.T. drill , etc. Not alot - done w. the INTENT to move as fast as possible. Works
And I GOTTA meet Josh ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: Silverback
Date Posted: 12/14/10 at 11:00am
|
I am an old spice man. I feel that part of the reason I do so well in the gym is using Old Spice Classic. Just saying. You want to cover all bases in regard to speed and power. You notice how Mike held this all back?
------------- Mule Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 4:22am
|
LOL...per Pingleton's math I am clearly the least explosive person I know. My ratio is .33
------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 5:53am
| Between Pete's mathing and your Star Trek, someone's gonna shove this thread into a locker. |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 8:02am
I don't know, I would say that is a very valuable piece of data for Duncan. To the extent it's not due to poor snatching technique, if he can get that ratio up it will make him a better thrower. Same with the Power Ratio test (search for it) or just improving your 16# overhead shot toss. Being big and strong is a good thing, even a necessary thing if you want to throw really far, but it isn't sufficient - you need to be fast too. These kinds of tests help you determine if your training is really helping you in ways that will improve your throwing performance. I would WAY rather be a 250 lb guy who squats 500 but has a 30" vertical jump and a 56' overhead shot toss than a 290 lb guy who squats over 600 but has a 20" vertical jump and a 46' overhead shot toss. More strength is always better, but only if it is the kind of strength that can actually be applied during the course of a throw. This will vary between the Open Stone and the HWFD, but the principle remains the same... ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 8:12am
Good idea, Peter. Ninja's are also cool. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 8:21am
|
Seriously, though. To make any compound exercise to work for you, the easiest way from point-a, to point-b, is having a decent training partner or coach. Running numbers in lieu of setting oneself down the correct path is wasteful and confusing. There are plenty of good programs out there, but get the basics down first. |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 10:37am
|
Excellent, so you will be headed this way to train me? WOO HOO. Ninjas or Star Trek...there's a MTV Death Match that was never aired. (No seriously, either every real lifter is totally underground in KC or people hate me and hide...cause I have not been able to find a trainer of any decent ability. Hell the last one put me ON MACHINES!!! GAH.) |
Posted By: =Travis=
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 12:04pm
| Dave, they are all underground around here. I don't know of any weightlifters around here, I only know of the powerlifters and strongmen. I'll ask around for you and shoot you an email. |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 12:07pm
| Thanks Travis! One day maybe I need to talk you into letting me come spectate at a powerlifting session. Could help with my motivation in these winter months. |
Posted By: JReed
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 12:47pm
|
To find a good Olympic style weightlifting coach try posting a request here: http://www.goheavy.com/forums/olympic/ - http://www.goheavy.com/forums/olympic/ |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/15/10 at 1:28pm
Good discussion, my turn to jump in as the devil's advocate, cause I like to do that. I'm not so sure I agree with this, at least to the extent that you're pushing it. Of course you're probably pushing it to extremes there with the 10" vertical difference, although I don't know or have any experience with VJ. For arguments sake, I would be willing to bet money that you are throwing the OH shot further than I am. What does that mean to me? It means if that is ever contested in a highland game setting, you'll crush me. Just because the 290lb guy in your example can't apply it to an OHS, doesn't mean he can't apply to a wfd, or sheaf, or wob. I almost assuredly got slower while putting on 25lbs more body weight for the 2010 season than I carried for the 2009 season. I did; however, get stronger. As a result, my increased body weight and increased strength made me throw consistently farther, with the exception of the open stone. Nothing else in my training changed. I think we want to believe that certain things correlate more than they actually do sometimes. That may or may not be the case here, just sayin... Again, I'm not refuting anything posted above as it's all good advice, just throwing a different viewpoint out there. ------------- |
Posted By: Joel Sim
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 12:27am
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii1Dk2X8Y6w - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii1Dk2X8Y6w ya, no vertical street cred at all ------------- |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:26am
Actually, it's pretty widely accepted in oly lifting that long arms are an advantage. Longer pull and all that.
Meh, anyone can do that. ------------- |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:39am
|
Re below - I will address each of Craig's points, but
this is why I often feel compelled to go into some detail in my posts, and why even that is often not enough to make my point clear to everyone. Anyway...
------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:42am
|
Like I said, I had no idea on the differences in VJ ability from athlete to athlete, 10" just seemed like a huge number to me. There's about a 0% chance I could hip snatch near 300, even if I wanted too. You give me far too much credit. And ya, there are a lot of very strong guys with a mediocre WOB. There are also very strong, very fast, hip snatching fools like Hadley who are also just mediocre at WOB. That why I think sometimes too much stock is put into correlation when it may not be there. I do; however, think for the most part we agree on the majority of things. One discernible difference between your thoughts and mine is the idea of superfluous strength and the correlation of exercises to the actual events we do. I'm of the opinion that there is no such thing as superfluous strength, and that for the most part there really is little correlation between gym lifts and throws. If I were to change my training to try and throw farther, I doubt my gym work would change at all and I would still use my time in there to get as strong as possible. Any timing/speed/plyo work would probably take place on the field with the implements. Would that work? Would that be optimal? Neither of us will ever know... ------------- |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:50am
Um, really? Seriously, though. If Highland Games was purely a power output sport, we'd all look a lot different. The number crunching is ONLY good for making sure you are making progress. If you aren't making progress, like ACTUALLY throwing farther or lifting more, well, you're doing it wrong. If there's something I maybe an expert on, it's doing it wrong. Go with what you know, I say. Half the folks who are doing it right don't even know how right they are, because what they do is so simple. It's a pretty basic model, really. 1. Find exercises that make you better. 2. Do them. 3. Get better at them. 4. When progress stalls, figure a way to chop 'em up, so you can progress again. 5. Rest and pray for success. Most of us aren't kids. We've GOT 99.999999% of whatever raw athleticism that we're going to get. Speed, power, reaction time, etc. What's that leave us to work on? Basic strength, CV fitness, and flexibility. Get going on those, I say. However you do them, just make progress. Training broad jumps, box jumps, jump squats, overhead shots, hurdles, etc, are just going to get me better 0.000000000001% better at broad jumps, box jumps, jump squats, overhead shots, hurdles, etc. I can use those as exercises as tests to measure progress, but I figure the die was mostly cast on my potential for those when my parents decided to have me. BUT most of us, through hard training, can get big and strong enough to fool most of the population into thinking we're athletic. And with a little self- delusion, well, NOW that's a recipe for success. My deal is, the dude wants to get better at the power snatch. Let's just do THAT. |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 2:57am
|
How old were you in that picture Josh? ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:06am
|
Craig,
Here is a bit of info on vertical jumps and the Power Output test taken from a couple of very old threads. The first one was my very first post on NASGA. The discussion was pretty similar four years ago! Posted: 28/11/06 at 4:31pm | IP Logged If you are looking for a correlation (with technique an uncontrollable variable and height of the thrower a known variable) consider this. Power output = (square root of weight in pounds) x (square root of vertical jump in inches). Therefore, the power output for Mr. Sorin at his best would be (square root of 230) x (square root of 36.5 inches) = 15.166 x 6.042 = 91.62 = world class. This is the same as a 220 lb. thrower who can vertical jump 38 inches or a 280 lb. thrower who can jump 30 inches. Basically, any score over 85 is excellent, a score over 90 is world class, and anyone who scores over 95 is truly a freak. Although I don't have the formula, the same principle holds true with standing long jump. If your standing long jump is getting farther at a given bodyweight, you are getting more powerful, period. And it is power (and technique), not absolute strength, that is going the let you throw farther (although there is certainly some correlation between power and absolute strength). Keep in mind that Matt Sandford supposedly had a standing long jump of 3.60m or 3.65m (almost 12 feet). Of course, one needs reasonable technique to apply one's power effectively. In addition, there is no question that being taller is an advanatage in every throwing event to a varying degree. Posted: 28/11/06 at 5:00pm | IP Logged Further to my last post regarding power output: Sean Betz: (square root of 295) x (square root of 30) = 94.07 Dave Brown: (square root of 360(!)) x (square root of 25) = 94.87 Ryan Vierra: (square root of 275) x (square root of 33) = 95.27 (!!!) These scores are amazing and are indicative of tremendous basic power. So to answer Mr. Baab's original question, IMO any vertical jump at a bodyweight that results in a very high power output trumps stoopid strong, but the two are often highly correlated, especially in season. Posted: 01/12/06 at 10:56am | IP Logged You might also be interested to know that a few years ago, Adam Nelson (one of the very best shotputters in the world) achieved a 36 inch vertical jump weighing about 255 (at 6.0' tall), which results in a score of 95.81. Werner Gunthor, one of the top 3 shot putters of the late 1980's and a multiple World Champion, had a vertical jump of 95cm (37.4") and a standing long jump of 3.60m. Gunthor weighed about 280 lbs. at 6'6" tall, so his power output as explained above would be an absolutely incredible 102.2! Gunter was a terrific athlete who also high-jumped 2.11m (about 7 feet) when he was a bit younger. Crazy. If you are looking for a correlation with some result and throwing success (with throwing technique a constant or unknown variable), this is one of the best, along with the standing long jump at a given bodyweight, overhead shot throw, quadrathon total, and power clean and power snatch (assuming decent technique). ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:08am
Old enough to be your daddy? |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:16am
From the oly coaches and and competitive oly athletes I have spoken with, yes. I have no direct evidence myself with that, just going from what I was told by those in the actual sport. As for Suleymanoglu, do you really consider him to have short arms proportionately considering the guy was all of like what, 4'10"? ------------- |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:24am
|
Josh,
Although I agree with many of the points in your post, I think you are confusing "potential" with "performance" and underestimating how much increases in one's results in the types of activities you noted transfer to throwing performance, assuming one has decent throwing technique. While there are obviously significant differences in potential between individuals, most people can significantly improve their results in the various speed- strength tests through training. At some point additional increases may require improvements in basic strength, but that is part of the process and most people will increase their results significantly before they reach that stage. Furthermore, in my experience, if your OHS toss increases and you have decent throwing technique (necessary to effectively apply any increased power) at the very least your stone results are going to improve as well. Same with the results in the SLJ for a given individual at a given weight. And the others too. The one caveat is that this mostly applies to improvements by a given individual - one cannot say that the athlete with a better SLJ or hip snatch will throw farther than someone with lower results as there are too many other variables (height, limb length, other strength levels, throwing technique, etc). ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:44am
I obv agree with this. Same can be said for basically any exercise.
Eh....So lets say for example, your goal is to throw the stone farther. We will use you as an example, since OHS are part of your regular programming. Why would you do that instead of actually throwing the shot? Is there some different benefit you feel you get from throwing it backwards as opposed to "normal"?
Agreed, and to take it a step further, I will also argue that one can not simply make the generalization that a bigger SLJ = a bigger stone put. Right? ------------- |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 3:58am
|
For the record Josh, my Father would smash you. But he sucks at SLJ and OHS toss too. That's what I get for being in the shallow end of the gene pool.
------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 4:09am
With respect, I think you're confusing "attributes" with "ability." And ability is what matters. |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 4:09am
|
Craig,
With respect to your second question I have included overheads more than actual putting during the past year for a few specific reasons that would not generally apply, namely: 1) You are conflating stone/shot putting and overheads, simply because they use the same implement. Overheads are a general exercise to improve explosiveness/dynamic strength, not a specific shot putting drill. They are used almost as much by some discus throwers and hammer throwers. 2) I knew I was not going to be competing for a while, and later at all during the season. Given this, I wasn't too worried about my stone technique and preferred to focus on maintaining/improving my explosiveness and training in a time-effective manner. Keep in mind that I am 44 and explosiveness is one of the first things to diminish as one ages if one does not utilize this capacity. So far, I am doing fine in that area and I only see myself improving for the next year or so. 3) I have (or have had/can have) pretty good stone technique but I was not throwing with a coach or even using a video camera (need to change that). Therefore, there was a fair likelihood that I might pick up a bad habit or two, which would be harder to change in the future (when I might be able to work with my old coach) than if I had never practised in that manner. This is not typical or generally recommended, and might be a bit of an excuse, but there you have it. With respect to your third point, I would disagree and say that for a given individual, at a given level of strength and a given level of throwing technique, improvements in the SLJ WILL result in improvements in putting distance. I don't think too many throwing coaches would disagree with that position. The SLJ at a given bodyweight is a basic test of power. Do you not believe a more powerful athlete will throw farther, everything else being equal??? BTW, this brings up a related point - for throwers, the point of increasing strength is to increase POWER. If your strength training is not actually making you more POWERFUL then you are not training in an effective manner for a thrower. This is the bottom line - whether you do hip snatches or box squats or max deadlifts, if you are getting more POWERFUL, as evidenced by basic tests of POWER (as opposed to strength) then you are on the right track. If not, you need to try something else. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 4:24am
...that, and a pair of rec-specs. |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 5:32am
|
P- 1) I only made that point because you expressed an absolute direct correlation. 2) and 3) Fair enough.
Of course I agree. Do you not believe a stronger athlete will throw farther, everything else being equal??? Your last paragraph is interesting, and obv I agree. With that being said, I think the correlation between max strength and power is very high. I also think that most programs address both functions, even if unintentionally. As an aside, I know that you think there is a point where specific power training should take over when an athlete has reached X strength levels. Do you think the opposite is true? For example, we take a Dave Barron type athlete who can already to jumps at X, already move the bar at X mps, etc... but can still only deadlift 500. Should his training then go the other way and focus more specifically on max strength? ------------- |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 6:22am
|
"Do you not believe a stronger athlete will throw
farther, everything else being equal???" Maybe, but if everything else is equal, probably not actually. As I said, strength training is valuable/essential to the extent that it results in increases of power. If everything else is equal then you achieved nothing of consequence from a throwing perspective. To play Devil's Advocate with you, if you are squatting more (and you are therefore stronger) should your performance in power tests like the SLJ, vertical jump, and OHS not also have improved, particularly if there is a very high correlation between strength and power as you go on to state (which I largely, but not entirely, agree with)? While there is obviously a decent correlation between max strength and max power, they are certainly not the same thing and I believe the correlation will vary between individuals. The problem is that, by definition, there is a time element to power that is not present when testing strength. So the issue is, how long does it take a given person to generate a given amount of strength, or alternatively a given percentage of their maximum strength? This is what it means to be explosive as opposed to merely strong, and we all know of individuals who are strong but not particularly explosive. This is particularly relevant in the throwing events, especially the lighter ones, because the time period involved is very brief. This is the point of training in a very dynamic fashion - to teach the body to generate the maximum amount of strength possible in a very limited period of time. This is why some coaches believe there is limited benefit to be gained by throwers from utilizing the Dynamic Effort method a la Westside - you are still only moving at say 1-2m/second vs. say 10- 12m/second. With respect to your last point, I absolutely believe this and have been explicit about this in prior posts in this very thread. In fact, that is basically how that discussion started, albeit dealing specifically with one's power snatch to deadlift ratio. So for an athlete like Barron or Bert Sorin or Nathan Burchett, the easiest way to get more powerful is simply to get stronger, because they are already extremely explosive and getting stronger is much easier than improving their explosiveness slightly. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 6:32am
|
There's 9 damn events. Is there enough time, and recovery time, to be experimenting with 5234759078324508234570 training modalities? You can only be good at so many things, right? Why not apply the 80/20 rule to one's own training? |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 6:36am
|
Point of clarification....vertical jump. We are talking straight legged vertical right? Or up against one of those poles with the little flags on it? We are NOT talking about that jump/squat up onto a pile of boxes right? Because that is a technique/flexibility thing not an actual vertical jump...it won't help you dunk a basketball. Or am I wrong? |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 6:43am
|
'Cause that is no fun... |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 6:45am
|
Yes, a "vertical jump" is off two static feet, marking the
highest point one can reach with one hand. Box jumps are very different, and while I strongly disagree that they will not help improve your vertical jump, jumping onto a 42" box is a totally different thing than having a 42" vertical jump (unless you land on the box with straight legs as opposed to the typical full squat). ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 6:53am
Day 1. hang clean deadlift Day 2. hang snatch push press Day 3. squat row That's all full fun, chico. |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 7:24am
Absolutely, I 100% agree with this. Now we both agree that I don't need to do those things to 1) get more powerful and even 2) get better at those type things. I can just strength train with squats and deadlifts 
Gotcha, and I obv agree. ------------- |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 7:26am
sheesh, that's much more complicated than the program I use.  ------------- |
Posted By: Greg Hadley
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 7:52am
|
Easy now, Craig. I would say my difficulty in the WOB is more a reflection of technique than the exercises I've committed to. While my WOB still sucks, since working in lots of hip snatches I've seen a dramatic improvement in my caber. The correlation seems obvious to me. For the record, I agree with all of Peter's points wholeheartedly. ------------- 7 |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 7:58am
|
Put another way, how about this: It's easier to add something to your program that will screw you up, than it is to add something that will put you over the top. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 8:00am
| Unless it's the soundtrack to Vision Quest. Obviously. |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 12:21pm
lol, i said you were very strong and very fast. But wait, your willing to say that your lack of technique is the limiting factor in WOB and your increased power via the hip snatch has not helped. Then on the other hand, you give full credit to the power via the hip snatch for the caber, insinuating that technique did not improve. Does not compute. ------------- |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 12:33pm
|
Gentlemen and Canadians... Let me ask a question: Given that Pingleton's snatch is roughly half of his deadlift max, what is one supposed to do when they DL roughly 3x as much as they snatch? Frankly, I do not see myself EVER snatching 300+ (It's McCallum, not McKim) I have BAD tech and no one to really bounce it off of in real time, and we know I am about as explosive as flat Mt. Dew, so I just stumble along banging out 205's and 225's. Is there an answer? Keep doing what I'm doing? Renounce the Games and become a snatchaholic? ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 12:46pm
| Get a training partner who knows what they are doing. A decent bar. Then do it twice a week. |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 12:49pm
Get it up to 4x? That's what I'm working on. Or we could start a club? ------------- |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:00pm
|
Oh, I have a decent bar in the mail as we speak. And the rack/plates/etc fo real fo real. My training partner, Mark "Irish" Cannon, is just as bad as me. I just never learned how to do them. I am basically relegated to high pulls, but even these are not explosive. FML. You found that club Craig and I'll join it. I would need to dead almost 900. Ewwwww... ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:04pm
| It's not rocket surgery. |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:07pm
|
Says the bearded wunderkind. I'll work on it. ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:10pm
That or learn how to snatch less. There is more than one way to skin a cat.  ------------- |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:12pm
|
I'm not sure I could train to snatch any less than I do right now. When I do snatches, it is basically a hip snatch with very little knee bend. And they suck. ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: phatmiked
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:38pm
|
No offense to Mr. Hadley, but isn't his stature and relative length of his levers a mitigating factor in the WOB? Similar to Mr. Vierra? ------------- |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/16/10 at 1:51pm
|
Shut your face "Athletic Guy" with the perfectly proportioned body and dreamy eyes...
------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: dl_buffy
Date Posted: 12/17/10 at 1:44am
|
Possibly found a gym with a coach!! We'll see, seems I couldn't get him to set up evaluation session next week. Some stupid stuff about a minor holiday or something next week. Sheesh!!! I want to do this NOW!!!! Thanks to Travis for pointing me this way, if it pans out I will post more info about the place. |
Posted By: Greg Hadley
Date Posted: 12/17/10 at 9:42am
Sure it does. I have made several technique changes to my WOB over the years and despite significant increases in my strength and explosiveness remain "mediocre". My caber technique, however, has remained the same for years and since commiting to lifts like the hip snatch (in 2007) have been able to turn many large sticks. 2009 was probably my best year ever in the caber. I turned the World's challenge caber in Edinburgh that year a few weeks after just missing a 295lb hip snatch. @Phatmilked - I'd like to think that is a contributing factor, but there are/were many athletes with a similiar build to mine that had a big WOB (Pulcinella, KO, Mike Smith, etc.). In my opinion, the vast majority of athletes in the highland games would be well advised to consider Peter's points. ------------- 7 |
Posted By: swollenknuck
Date Posted: 12/18/10 at 10:55am
------------- Ray Siochowicz AD Victoria Highland Games Association www.victoriahighlandgames.com |
Posted By: phatmiked
Date Posted: 12/19/10 at 2:39am
was that directed at me?? i do not think that word means what you think it means. you may need to look "proportion" up in a dictionary. ------------- |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/19/10 at 3:31am
------------- |