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how to gain weight and keep cardio up?

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IRISHIRONMAN View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/06/09 at 11:08pm
Ive been lifting heavy and eating all the right stuff to gain mass and streinghth for the games but also running 1 mile a day as I want to keep up my cardio. (I also do stonelifting and know you need cardio to carry great weight any distance)problem is Between a fast metabalism and the cardio Im not gaining much weight and if i eat anymore ill burst! Suggestions?
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Wayne Hill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/09 at 11:40pm
Eat more often.
"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 1:29am

Do you really need to run a mile in any strongman competition?  A mile a day is A LOT and more like a distance athlete's training.  I'd seriously consider cutting that back to 'maybe' three times a week.

Now if running is your high, that's something different, but I HATE running and usually have to be dragged screaming the whole way.

Also, what kind/how much lifting are you doing?  You could be doing too much of that too...yes it is possible.

Wayne's got a point on the eating...how many times do you eat a meal each day?  (meal = protein/carbs/fats >600cals)  I am definitly what was termed a 'hard gainer' most of my life.  I only broke 200lbs body weight when I was 25...I only broke 230lbs bw at 39.  It happens.  But breaking your meals up to more times a day will make the bulk easier to deal with.

Another reason I suggest lowering the running is recovery time.  Your body needs DAYS of recovery in a lifting week.  Not hours.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IRISHIRONMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 2:34am

I hate running to but im on the fire list and have to stay in reasonable shape w/cardio because they could call me up at any time but i could cut it down to 3 times i just have to be ABLE to run a mile if im called lol.

im doin deadlifts,clean and jerk,shrugs,dumbbell snatch,shoulder press and bench oh and curl.

I am havin long recovery I need 4 sometimes 5 days to recover.

I will try to eat more often it,s a little tough w/work im eating 3 sometimes 4 times now?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlyinFree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 2:53am

this is disussed in this thread

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=958 9&PN=1

 

I think swimming is good

Todd Reese
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=Travis= View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote =Travis= Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 4:00am

4 and sometimes 5 days to recover seems like a lot. Maybe if I go for a max lift I'll need a while to recover but at the same time I'll still be doing other lifts. I'd be stale if I only lifted every 4-5 days.

Don't tell me you only lift every 4-5 days, that may be why you aren't getting any bigger. And eat a lot and get enough rest for good recovery.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IRISHIRONMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 4:45am
ya im definatly eating and gettin good sleep reallly sore and drained for at least 3 days afterwards even w/tons of liquid and ibuprofen didnt want to overtrain because i lifted every other day before and didnt grow freinds said i was overtrained take longer between gym days? Im fairly new to heavylifting lifted for boxing but that was lower weight high reps which i could do every other day no sweat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote =Travis= Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 5:23am
If you're new to heavy lifting, I doubt you're overtrained unless it's from all the running. Is it you're just sore for a couple days? That'll go away after you get back into it. But if you wait long to lift again because you're just sore, you'll only turn around and make yourself sore again with the DOMS. Lift a few times whether you're sore or not and get over it. There are times when I am sore as hell from heavy squats and the next day I will do lighter weight squats for high rep just for the purpose of helping get over that soreness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IRISHIRONMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 5:28am

so hair of the dog great ill give it a try thanks brother.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 6:18am

Uhm...I agree with Travis' post but not your interpretation (if I got it right).

I lift three days a week now that off season...1)Heavy Legs, 2)Heavy Upper Body, 3)Fast/Lighter all body.  That gives me one day inbetween and two days between 3 and 1.

My legs will definitely still be sore when I get to upper body and my upper body will be sore when I get to whole body.  Then two days off.

But...'hair of the dog' would imply that you should do squats one day and get right back at legs the next...I would not recommend that at all. Travis is most likely doing range of motion (ROM) stuff to stretch out legs and get blood flow into remove lactic acid.  I doubt he is 'training' legs again...(but maybe he is more of a beast than I know).

Also you may need to address your rep/set ranges.  (This came up in the deadlift thread just now.)  You really may not want to be going to full and totall failure every workout.  You need lots of regular lift days (say for a pump or sweat) then some max days (say to nausea)  [LOL...ok that last may just apply to me..:^)]

We are all shooting in the dark here.  If you post your schedule...lifts, runs, food, etc it would be more helpful.

Good Luck

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote =Travis= Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 7:01am
Originally posted by dl_buffy dl_buffy wrote:

Travis is most likely doing range of motion (ROM) stuff to stretch out legs and get blood flow into remove lactic acid.  I doubt he is 'training' legs again...(but maybe he is more of a beast than I know).

Yep.

And every once in a while if I have to because something comes up, (like this week I have to leave town for a funeral,) I will lift back to back day to get my week's work in. Its tough but then those few days when I'm away from lifting are spent recouperating. So I hit squats on monday, did some overhead work and benched yesterday and will do my usual friday deadlift day tonight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IRISHIRONMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 7:08am

yes ive been goin to max everytime trying to build streighth quickly (i know what you mean about nausea ive litterly worked till i puked twice lol)it,s been working for streighth ive gone up 10-20 lbs. per workout per exercise havnt platued yet(i realy need to download that spellchecker)last workout was clean and jerks,shrugs,deadlifts,dumbell snatch,curls,wrist curls,shoulder press,crunches and 1 mile run .  been eating  oatmeal,egg whites,banana and carnation instant breakfast for well breakfast then-lunch peanut butter,almond butter,banana sandwich and yogurt-dinner  rare steak and piles of buttery mashed -then 9pm bowl of ziti w/olive oil put carbs on for the next day. pretty much the same everyday.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote =Travis= Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 8:18am

You need to eat more, see the other thread about 190 pounders.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 8:34am

I am not endorsing any of the ideas or suggestions in this article, and it is not the route I would take, but it seems exactly on point.  JM Blakely was a member of the Westside crew.

The Big Boy's Menu Plan by JM Blakely

Good Eating

Cold, hard fact number one: If you gain weight, you will get stronger. Everybody already knows that. Even if most of the weight is not good weight, it will nevertheless have a positive effect on strength. Of course, there is the argument that the weight one gains should be quality weight (i.e. muscle, which is preferable) but the truth is that even adipose and water weight can contribute to heavier poundages lifted.

It is beyond the scope of this article to address the exact physiological mechanisms for this but tissue leverage is commonly cited as the main reason for the phenomenon. My purpose is not to explain why this happens but rather to explain how to take advantage of the fact that it happens. Weight moves weight!

If you understand and accept this, you have probably tried to bulk up?Eat some point in your training. You also have probably experienced the frustration, first-hand, of just how difficult it can be to gain weight. Anyone can gain 15-20 pounds (and they often do on accident!) but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm speaking of adding on 35-40 pounds on purpose with a combination of extra-heavy lifting and extra-heavy eating!

If anyone is confused about what I'm saying here then this article is not for you. I won't waste your time explaining and justifying the need for some lifters to put on weight. But for those of you who have been desperately trying to get your weight up and crack through a plateau, let's get to it. Why can't you seem to gain weight?

DO THE MATH

Quite simply, you aren't eating enough! I know, I know, you eat all the time, you eat more than everyone you know, you have a fast metabolism, yadda, yadda, yadda. I know all the excuses. I used them myself. I even believed them. But there are rules in the universe. We are bound by the laws of physics and no one is pardoned. Creating a positive caloric balance is completely defined by the equation: calories in vs. calories out = calories net.

That's it. No one escapes it. If you eat more calories than you use in a day, you will gain weight. Period. There is some fluxuation for metabolic shifts and the efficiency of the body's absorption of calories, granted, but this effect is small and it is the rare person who exhibits a metabolism that could bear the blame for one unable to manipulate their weight. More about this later, but for now get it straight- your metabolism is not to be a scapegoat for your lack of discipline.

You must eat more. If your metabolism speeds up then you must eat even more to cover that. There is a limit to how fast your metabolism can run. You must stay ahead of it. And you must learn to control it. Above all, you must accept the unarguable fact that you must put more food into your mouth.

My favorite question to ask those people who think they are eating tons of food but not gaining weight is, "what do you weigh?" Then when they answer (let's say 195 lbs. for example) I respond "and how long have you weighed that?" They almost always answer that they have been at their current weight for over one year and often much longer.

To this I quip "then you are eating enough to maintain 195 pounds. If you want to weigh 215, you need to eat more than a person who weighs 195. You have to eat like a person who weighs 215! You have proven that you eat only enough to keep your weight steady. You've been 195 for some time now! And what you're eating is enough to hold that. But it's not enough to drive it up. So if you think you're eating all this extra food, think again. You're eating a maintenance feed lot. You need a growth feed lot!

If you've been eating like a 215 pounder all last year, you would weigh 215 now! You're not eating any more than any other 195 pounder! Try harder! Eat more!"
The only hole in this example is the energy output of the individual. But all things being equal, I hope you are getting the point here. You can't gain weight if you don't eat more.

The general principle is this: train as hard as you can to create a stimulus for growth. Then feed the body everything it needs to adapt. You must cover three needs. The recovery, the repair, and the growth. Some trainees only eat enough to recover from the last workout. They will end up overtrained because they aren't meeting the need for repair and their tissues begin to break down under the strain of heavy lifting.

Other lifters will eat enough to recover and repair, but not enough to cover the expense of growth. These lifters end up on a constant plateau, having hard workouts, recovering from them and not overtraining, but never seeing progress. It's a stalemate (the maintenance feed lot group). They train for years and somehow excuse the lack of results to genetics or another bogey man.

You have to cover all three aspects of nutrient need recovery, repair, and growth. First , eat enough to recover from the stress of a training session. Second, eat enough to repair any damage the workout may have caused.(If you are training very heavy, there is always micro-trauma occurring at the cellular level). Third, you must eat even more to cover the cost of your body building itself up. If you don't eat these extra calories, where will the body get the energy to do the building? And what ,pray tell, do you suppose it will use for building material?

Your body needs stuff (matter) to build with. You can't build something out of nothing. The body needs substance to convert into body mass. That substance is food.

The only way to be absolutely certain that you are getting the most out of your workout is to eat more than you need for recovery, repair, and growth. You will begin to see a bit of bodyfat start to accumulate. Please don't misunderstand me and think I'm telling everyone to get obesely fat. I'm only suggesting a light layer of "winter weight" or a "softening" You should never let your bodyfat percentage rise above unhealthy levels, and never put on what you can't get off.

This is what I call bathing the cells in nutrients. You give them all they need and then a little bit extra which you can see usually around your middle. Remember; it's OK to put it on to gain strength if you also plan to take it off later and maintain your new strength level when you diet. Just make sure you get around to dieting sooner or later! This way every workout has the nutrients it needs to give it the chance to be fully effective.

Step one is the realization that you are ,in fact, not eating enough. Some trainees will admit this but then have trouble with the work of eating. To this I say only: DISCIPLINE! You must eat on schedule. You must eat what you are supposed to. You must not excuse yourself from eating what you are supposed to when you are supposed to. This is the self same discipline that everyone recognizes the need for in losing weight.

It is no different for you who would choose to gain weight. No one feels sorry for a person who says they are trying to lose a few pounds and then proceeds to attend meetings with Ronald McDonald, Ben and Jerry, and Bud Weiser. And I don't feel sorry for those who lack the discipline to eat more.

I know how difficult it can be. But I am reminded of the time I was complaining to a friend about how hard I was trying to get my weight up to 300 pounds and how tough it was for me to eat so much, and boo-hoo-hoo. The friend looked at me, clearly fed up with my whining, and remarked "I see several people over 300 lbs at work (he was a physical therapist) and they really don't seem to be trying all that hard! They weigh 300 and they don't try!"

This put it in better perspective for me. I even had the advantage of working out with weights to help boost my weight and these guys were out eating me and my best effort without so much as a second thought. If people can do it on accident, I could certainly do it on purpose! And I did. So can you.

Admit that you are undereating. Then admit that you are not trying your best. I don't believe you if you tell me you can't eat any more than you are eating now. If you tell me you can't eat any more, I'll tell you that you just can't have what you want then. (I never argue with someone who tells me they can't). That's the universe's law, not mine. If you can't do the work, you can't have the reward. Sorry. Now, do you really mean can't or is it more like won't? If you want it, you can. Ask anybody who has.

Those are the two biggest roadblocks to gaining weight. Admitting that you are not doing the job and that your effort has been less than stellar, and realizing that if others can do it so can you. Once you accept those responsibilities, instead of complaining and passing the buck, you can get to the business of getting down to it. And that, my friends, is the same in all endeavors, if you are willing to pay the price, you can have the reward.

I will readily admit that it seems to be easier for some than others. But the price is relative. You are not anyone else. You must not compare the ease or difficulty which you are presented to anyone else's situation. So what if it is easier for your pal to gain weight than you? What does that have to do with you? Nothing. Your task is your task. If you must eat 400 calories more than him to get the same results, then that's the price for you . You decide for yourself whether to pay up or not.

Oh yeah, I should mention - life's not fair. He got a discount and you got taxed. So what? You can still both have it. Are you willing to pay or not? If you're not, you're not. But your reason shouldn't be because it cost you more than someone else. When someone wants something bad enough they'll pay double! They don't care- they are just happy to get it.

What I'm telling you is that you can gain weight if you accept the fact that it is possible and that it is going to be hard. I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it. Get rid of any excuse or explanation for not gaining other than I'm not trying hard enough. I must try harder. Then you're on your way. Blame only yourself for past shortcomings and resolve to bring whatever it takes to the table from now on.

Tricks of the Trade: Big Boy's Menu Plan

One secret is caloric density. Learn to eat foods that provide more calories per unit volume. That is, they give you lots of calories for how much space they take up in the gut. 250 calories of salad fills you up even with the dressing but a chocolate bar would only feel like a snack.

Also, add lots of condiments to your food. Carry mayo with you and add lots of it to everything. Same goes for Thousand Island dressing and chocolate sauce. Be creative and never eat anything that you don't add calories to in some way. Melt provolone cheese over your pasta. Put ranch dressing on your pizza. Dip potato chips in honey. I don't care what sick and twisted combinations you come up with, as long as you find it palatable.

You wouldn't believe some of the things I've eaten. ( Try a bowl full of peanut butter smothered in maple syrup and a stick of butter in the microwave for 30 seconds. Lay two Hershey bars over it to melt and you'll just start to understand.)

Carry food with you. Always have a jar of peanuts in your car. Carry Pop-Tarts, Slim Jim meat snacks, candy bars, anything handy that travels well and needs no special preparation. Never get caught away from food. Put it in your desk, your locker, your gym bag, your brief case, hell, carry some around in your pockets if you have to! Never miss a meal because you couldn't eat.

What's that? Couldn't eat? It takes less than 50 seconds to eat two candy bars. That's over 500 calories. Even if you have to sneak it on the job, go to the john and wolf them down. You must never be without food. Take some with you. and never say you didn't have time (50 seconds?!) or opportunity. Find time or make time.

Eat immediately upon arising. Start right away. You lost time sleeping - you weren't eating! Fill up first thing in the morning. Don't wait! You went several hours without any food. The longer you wait the less time you have to get all the food your supposed to eat down. If you wait long enough it will be impossible to make it. You'll run out of time.

Get off to a solid start. Minimum first meal calories: 1200. Eat over a grand right away and the rest of the day will be easier. Eat less, and you'll be playing catch-up all day long.

Eat just prior to bed. You are going to go for hours without food?Euel up! This is your last chance to feed your body for a long time give it one last push. This is uncomfortable for many, but with practice you will adapt and be able to eat a good calorie load before retiring. Shoot for 500 calories minimum.

Try foods you used to dislike or have never eaten before. After several weeks of overeating, everything begins to taste the same. Even your favorite foods lose their flavor. You exhaust your repertoire of choices. Open it up. Go for the calamari or the shark fin soup. Try a quiche. Eat at an ethnic restaurant.

Find new favorites that you can eat lots of. I hated cottage cheese as a youngster, but now I mix it in with spaghetti and dump it into soups! I even eat the fat free variety on a reducing diet! You will surprise yourself. Don't be afraid to try. You may still dislike salmon, but you may get a taste for artichoke after all.

Drink regular soda pop (possibly caffeine free) and whole milk. Never drink any fluids that don't have calories. No tea without sugar, no coffee without cream and sugar, no diet beverages whatsoever. No plain water! Canned soda pop is an excellent source of purified water. But it also has precious calories. Gatorade is fine and has electrolytes as well. 108 ounces a day is the minimum.

But don't fill your stomach without putting some calories in along with. A 12 0z. can of soda pop has about 150 calories. Quench your thirst and give your body more calories at the same time. ( I'm not knocking water, folks, I'm just illustrating that you can hydrate yourself and get calories in the bargain. )

Count your calories. You may think you are consuming an abundance of food, but you're probably giving yourself too much credit. It is very hard to eat over 5000 calories every day for weeks on end. And if its 7 or 8,000 you think you're getting in every day I think you'd better check that. Often a trainee will eat 6,000 calories on Monday, but then stoop to 3500 or so for the next two days.

Then Thursday maybe get 5500 and follow that for two days of 3000. all the while they believe that they are eating 6000 every day. Avoid this kind of fluxuation. Keep a solid average. And keep track. At least for a series of days every now and then. A few days a month check up on yourself. If your goal is 5500 calories a day add it all up and make sure. You'll soon get better at estimating and you won't have to go through this so much.

But take my advice, if you are not seeing the scale move the way you think it should, double check your count. You most likely are overestimating your intake. This gives you feedback so you can make adjustments. Even if you're an old pro at calorie counting it's a good idea to take account every so often.

Issues and Precautions

This kind of diet is admittedly not the most conducive to your overall health. But we should get one thing straight - you are not doing it for health reasons, you are doing it for better performance in your chosen sport. This is one of those "quality of life" issues. You choose to pursue powerlifting because of reasons other than improved health such as challenge, personal pride, self esteem benefits, sense of strength, or any other of a basket full of psycho/emotional reasons not to mention the sheer fun of it!

There are plenty of health benefits to the sport of powerlifting and weight training in general which have all been outlined many times before. I acknowledge those, of course, I'm just saying that if you are competing and trying to bulk up, you probably have more personal motives for continuing to put so much into this sport. And those motives most likely supersede any health benefits.

Having said that, let me turn the table back on your health. This style of diet can have very serious effects on your body. One effect is a dramatic improvement in your strength. But another effect is an increase in your blood cholesterol level! It would be irresponsible of me to ignore the down side?E So I'll give a few suggestions of what I feel is prudent and responsible behavior that would accompany such an eating program. (It's all common sense, anyway!)

Have your cholesterol checked before you begin. Get a baseline. If you have high levels, you may want to reconsider and see your doctor about options to lower it.

Check your cholesterol every 15-20 pounds that you gain. Or every 10 weeks on the diet. Set a limit with your doctor as to how high you will permit it to rise and remain on the diet. If it goes above such-and-such a number, abort .

Do some form of cardiovascular exercise. Minimum 3 days per week. I know you don't want to spend the precious calories on cardio, but the cv exercise will help keep the cholesterol down as well as abating some of the inevitable sluggishness that comes with weight gain. I've done it both with and without cv and I feel much ,much better with a daily walk. And you can eat just one more snickers bar to cover it. All the while your heart gets some exercise and your metabolism doesn't get so loggy.

Check your blood pressure at the start and then every four days while on the diet. Get your own monitor or find one of the countless free places that you can have it taken for you. Use the same equipment every time. Expect some increase in bp. Consult your doctor and make a decision as to what you both will tolerate. If your bp goes past the limit you have set, abort.

Issues of sleep apnea can develop. This is a tough disorder in which you interrupt your breathing for a few seconds all through the night and wake up in the morning exhausted from gasping for 8 hours! This affects a huge number of people in the US but commonly is made worse by gaining weight. If it affects you, you may not know it?Eouâ??re asleep while it's going on. But sooner or later someone will tell you, your wife, your girlfriend, your next-door neighbor.

It's often confused for a bad case of snoring. But after a couple of weeks of full nights rest and an accompanying deep fatigue, you will begin to suspect something is wrong. I wish I had some sort of fix-it for this but the only advice I can give is to try propping yourself up at a slight incline when you sleep and put up with it as much as your significant other will allow. If it is too much of a problem, seek medical attention and decide what else to try. If you must , abort. You won't see the progress you want in your training if you're not getting the rest you need.

Have a full blood work up done (this will most likely accompany your cholesterol but ask for it any way. These days health care professionals are cutting costs and if you ask for cholesterol values that may be all that gets run!) . Of special interest are : triglycerides, liver enzymes, thyroid levels especially T-4 and TSH, and any values having to do with pancreatic function. These can become upset with drastic changes in dietary habits and need an eye kept on them.

Measure your bodyfat percentage. Set a limit to how high you will let it go. Remeasure it every 10 pounds you gain. See how many pounds are muscle and how many are fat. A good bargain is 1 pound of muscle for every 2-3 lbs of fat.

If you are a master lifter, consider your medications and consult your doctor about the effect weight gain may have on any of them especially heart meds. Your dosage may need to be adjusted.

Remember that the weight gain is to be temporary. You should plan a reducing diet to follow at a specified time in your training. This is where you attempt to maintain most of the new strength you amassed during the bulking phase while lowering your body fat to the same level you started at. You are not training to get stronger, only to hold the strength you have while dropping the excess.

Commit yourself to the goal of returning to your starting level of bodyfat and see how much of the new strength you're kept. If you diet right, it should be above 80%. So that is your true gain. The gain you keep after gaining and losing the excess bodyfat is what counts. If you gain 20 lbs on your bench and lose 15 when you diet, you missed the point. If you gain 20 lbs on the bench and keep 15 (16) you've achieved something and done it correctly. Now repeat this process as necessary!!

I suggest that you only hold your weight heavy for no longer than 5-6 months before you diet back down. Each time you repeat this process, you will hold more strength and have more muscle mass than before. Avoid staying heavy too long. It is only temporary!

These things will help you minimize the risks associated with the rigors of body weight manipulation. Competitive sports all have risks. Every highschooler who puts on a football helmet on Friday night and knocks heads with the cross-town rivals takes the risk of spinal injury. Risks are unavoidable and usually increase with the level of play. Just be responsible.

Take care of yourself within the risks. Do what you can to minimize them. Pay attention. If you don't watch your blood pressure, how do you know if you might not be begging for a stroke? For Christmas sake, at least know what you're levels are. You can always decide to do what is right for you. Continue or stop. Or continue on a different course. But at least do the best you can to stay as healthy as you can.

Remember: If you want to beat the man, you've got to out -eat the man!

Good eating,

J.M.


We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 8:47am

Originally posted by IRISHIRONMAN IRISHIRONMAN wrote:

last workout was clean and jerks,shrugs,deadlifts,dumbell snatch,curls,wrist curls,shoulder press,crunches 

Dude...how long were you in the gym?!?! Clean and Jerk, Deads, Snatch?!?!  All in one work out?

That is not max effort...that is max endurance.  Completely different.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IRISHIRONMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 12:29pm

About 2 and a half hours? im doin 2 5rep sets w/little rest between sets because ive no patience for sitting around between sets.

think i should break it up into 2days?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coach Mac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/09 at 12:41pm

H'mmmm....I always get the feeeling that most of the un-initiated are following the path made popular in the late 1950's-and 60's  in the USA that MORE is better ?

I quess I should make a post called : STOP the INSANITY !!!

We have some modern warriors on here that they have to be either  independantly wealthy (based on there projected medical bills  ) or have  great medical insurance and lots of time tooo re-hab ?

The crazy thing to me is that it seems to mostly  SELF INDUCED ?   

The throwers at the college level with a training age of 4-6 years do 9 lifts a WEEK ( 3 too failure) and this is producing 30-40LB increases in speed lifts (snatch/clean) increased speed and jumping ability every 6-weeks with NO injuries .  

We do run hills (forwards and backwards= leg work) as well as do a ton of release movements with heavy hammers and wts (= pulls) as well as HEAVY ( 25-35-lb SHots ) so its ADJUNCT Training for throws .

Have a GREAT Day !
Rob " Coach Mac " Mac Kay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/09 at 1:48am

Sorry Coach, I have no idea what you just said.

Irish...you are training like an endurance athlete.  You are not training like a power athlete.  You will have to make your own choices here.  2.5 hours in the gym on every work out is way too much for power/strength.  I have read of some strong ('natural') people that get everything done in 45 minutes or so.  I tend to take just over an hour because I USE up a lot of rest time between 2-3 minutes.

I use that much time because of sport specificity...I have never had to throw again in under 2 minutes in Highland Games.  (Even when I am on my third attempt and no one else is (thanks A's at backyard games :-/) then I will still take a minute to catch my breath.)

So taking the food advice and the lifting stuff....you are eating for what you weigh now and you are lifting like an endurance athlete.  You saw all those gaines as a 'begginer' in this kind of workout.  Everyone gets lots of good gains at start.  It takes smarts and planning to continue gains in long run.

You will need to figure out what your goals in gym/sports/life really are.  If you want to be a highland games/strength athlete you need to do the following....

1) Get a real power lift workout (Learn difference between max effort and endurance....low sets, low reps and still feeling like puke...about 1hr in gym...etc etc.)
2) Get serious about your diet.  You will need to eat more and more often.  If you are not gaining, you are not eating enough, if you are getting fat you are eating too much...it is that simple at it's basics

This is all very generic, but there are LOTS of specifics all over this forum, just search for them and there are lots of guys that are better than me....bigger than me....and stronger than me.  (I just have degrees in this stuff so think I know it all...)  I am still pushing to get bigger (+15lbs) and stronger (600lb dead)....I still rely on the guys here that have done it to tell me what I am doing wrong.  This kind of lifting is rarified air....top 99th percentile kinda thing.  Most of your internet and 'trainer' in the gym have no idea.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/09 at 1:52am
What Coach said is right, it is intensity that builds muscle, not volume.  Don't work long, work hard, go home and eat and rest up and do it again.
Mule

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 17/20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/09 at 2:26am

Well crafted summation Coach Mac. No question, it is self iuced.

By the way your thoughts on German volume training which I had the pleasure of using when it migrated to the USA in the late 70's ( or sooner) My experience was with the 10x10 back squat with very strict recovery (90 seconds) same weight x2 per week with mininal jumps in wt. over a 3 month period. This was coupled with hi-rep step ups, hi-hurdle bounding and yoke running up a 45 degree hill approx. 20 yards. The throwing was done with heavy implements 18 and 20 full rotations and 22 for standing drills.

Anyways, your thoughts as I'am considering this routine. I would include alot of heavy hammer winds, kb/pud release movements, wt fr dist. turning drills with a 35 and 70 lb kb and shot drills/full throws with an 18.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Wills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/09 at 4:26am
Here's how I approach things now in the off-season, after dozens of injuries and also a lot of success at building size and strength:

  1. Warmups are key.  I think this is the most important part of my workout now.  Throw on the neoprene, work some heavy bag, then do some functional warmup ROM stuff, then some light warmups with the bar, emphasizing the area you will be working out.  If this kills you, and you can't lift after doing it, then you aren't in good enough shape to be lifting hard!  I have a great deal of scar tissue to support this hypothesis.
  2. Choose your lifts wisely.  Pick 3-4 multi-joint exercises (like squats, high pulls, push presses and core crushers) that are suited to helping you reach your goals, and go at them hard.  I usually only do 2-3 work sets on each of these.
  3. Accessory work is only to prevent injuries/imbalances.  After you have done your hard work, it's okay to do a little neck work, grip work, calf raises, etc...but this is not done at high intensity, it is only to make sure that you are addressing minor weak links.
  4. Stretch.  After you do your workout, sit in front of the TV for a half hour and stretch.  After the muscles are warm and tired is the best time to stretch.  This sets you up for success the next time.
  5. Eat.  Make sure you get high quality protein 4-6 x/day and drink plenty of water.
  6. Rest.  You need good sleep and some off days.  Working out hard every day does not work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlyinFree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/09 at 6:22am

wow!!! lots to learn

Though I must say- at the Ocala games there were a few lean muscular guys killing it.  And there we ALOT of big guys that weren't.

"technique in the throw" SEEMED, from my inexperienced eyes, to be more critical than bruit power.

continuing to read

Todd

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IRISHIRONMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/09 at 8:36am
well i have a lot more information i,ll have to go thru it all and find the common themes but i think i get the gist lift heavier,break all those exercises up into 2-3 other workouts,eat a lot more and stay active rom ect. on the off days. thanks everyone appreciate all the advice.
There are two kinds of men in the world the Irish and those who wish they were!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 1:31am

STOP POSTING IN BIG BOLD FONT!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 2:54am

I THINK I MIGHT START DOING THAT FROM NOW ON TOO.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nesa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 3:17am

Simple question to answer before you get into anything else...

What are you?

Are you a thrower, a strongman, or a runner?

You can't be great at all 3. If you want to be an "also ran" then continue training for all 3 and accept the position...if you want to be a top athlete focus on one and train for that alone.

Good Luck with the training.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 4:06am
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

STOP POSTING IN BIG BOLD FONT!

Thank you,
The management

I was wondering about the choice in font...:^)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 4:11am
Originally posted by FlyinFree FlyinFree wrote:

wow!!! lots to learn

Though I must say- at the Ocala games there were a few lean muscular guys killing it.  And there we ALOT of big guys that weren't.

"technique in the throw" SEEMED, from my inexperienced eyes, to be more critical than bruit power.

continuing to read

Todd

Technique is huge in a few of the throws.  Technique helps in some others.  (In my experience.)  As for the skinny guys...(CHAD!)...do not doubt that they are strong.  Strong does NOT equal big.  In fact the stronger you can be...at the lightest weight you can be...would make you the better competitor because you are moving less weight total...but with the strength to move the implement.

On some throws where brute strength helps...then some of the skinnier guys do have to rely on technique to keep up.  I just watched a couple of novices in St Louis with massive strength an no technique ( ) still make some good distances.  But you could tell the technique issues from hammer, wfd, caber, and sheaf.

So you got it right...there are tons of posts on here about technique too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S McCracken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 4:53am
Originally posted by dl_buffy dl_buffy wrote:

[/QUOTE]
Strong does NOT equal big. 

[/QUOTE]  

I would have to say every Pro on the board would dissagree with this statement.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dl_buffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/09 at 5:29am
Originally posted by S McCracken S McCracken wrote:

Originally posted by dl_buffy dl_buffy wrote:

Strong does NOT equal big. 
  

I would have to say every Pro on the board would dissagree with this statement.

Tell me the guy in the red shorts is not strong...3 x body weight!

https://store.sorinex.com/Articles.asp?ID=163

Maybe I should fine tune that for the pedantics?   Hypertrophy does not necessarly equal strong...and strong does not necessarily equal hypertrophy.

ps....and Chad G is an AWESOME thrower...but not the biggest...just built right.  There's a pro for the non-beefy throwers.

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