Oly lifts.....Sean/Dan/Peter/etc...

An interesting debate.  First off, I definitely see your point of the athletic stance comment.  It may be a bit of an ego thing as far as catching a big clean or snatch. But I don't know that the picture of Dan tells the whole story.  In picture 2,  Dan finishes the pull and catches the weight over his head.  From personal experience you need to pull longer to do so, than with a high pull.  I don't think this finish of the pull is captured in picture 2, but I may be wrong.  I don't think he drop squats under the weight, but continues to pull higher.  In picture 1. Dan gets a good high pull, but I think its because he is trying to snatch the weight.  I don't think it would be that high if he was just high-pulling it by intention.  This may sound ridiculous, but I know that I personally pull a weight higher when I'm trying to clean or snatch it, not just pull it.  I've tried pulls to a band height in a rack and they feel different and my training partners say that I don't pull as high.  So I think there is a big finish-pull element involved.  Here's is a video of Hossein Rezazedah jumping out wide with a big clean in a training hall video at 4:20 in the vid. So not just football guys and throwers do this.  I have seen this a number of times on training vids of great lifters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMY6mxdP0MQ 

It is a real good question Craig.  Cleaning and Snatching this way may not be ideal for everyone.  I can safely say that I can hang clean 352 without a wide catch.  I know that my pull has improved by the way I almost knocked myself out with 308 under the chin, a few weeks ago.  That actually made me realize my pulling potential more than my near misses at 400.  Then again their are throwers out there that are doing no olympic type movements and are very explosive.  Many ways to rome.

I think you have to look at this being a bad angle for the feet width: I know what you're talking about, and I've always been against a severly wide leg jump with the feet.  I've seen some really wide stances, and I am not overly wide (in comparison to many hang clean or snatch movements of other lifters).

That being said, let me breakdown my theory on cleans and snatches from the hang.  There are different phases (at least I believe) that make up a succesful clean or snatch.

1. Jump Shrug: This is the "pop" from the hips.  The EXPLOSION that makes these lifts so critical (I believe) for explosive abilities from the hips.  In the first picture, you labeled it as a "miss."  It was, but I honestly never got past this first phase.  I pulled it and popped it from my hips, but knew I wasn't going to be able to progress to the other phases, so I didn't continue my pull.  If you watch the video, you'll see me "give up" on the pull, and the "pop" from my hips carries the bar up fairly high (this, is a good sign for me, even if I knew I couldn't catch it).

2.  Next, at least for the snatch, is the movement needed to pull the bar back behind the head and above the shoulders.  This, is a reason I don't do high pulls; I want a long, fast, continuous pull; all the way through.  I'm not discrediting high pulls; some guys really like them and get a lot out of them, but my thought was always that if I'm going to pull it that "high," I might as well finish the lift and catch it.  So, that's the second phase.  The difference in the two pictures is that I was in this phase during that frame.

3.  Thirdly, to me, is the gather, "catch" and stand it up.  You can gather yourself, you can catch it, but it doesn't mean you'll always catch it.  You finish the throws, right? Then finish the whole lift. 

With that, and because of the movements we do, I do not do squat cleans or snatches; these are truly "Olympic lifts."  I don't ever pretend that I'm an Olympic lifter -- I want to be a powerful athlete and simply a strong dude.  I have miles to go to be both of those. 

If you watch video of an Olympic lifter, there's really no "jump shrug."  There's a deadlift, a gather, and then a massive front squat.  To me, these are very much different.  Watch a video, and you'll see that they only pull the bar high enough to get themselves under it to squat it up.  What I do, is different.  I want to pull the snot out of the bar by firing my hips and pulling hard.  If I can get an explosive "jump shrug," then I am doing my job.  None of our events are from the floor, and all of them are essentially fired from the hips to a level higher than the chest level. 

This, I believe, relates to the wide "leg spray."  I feel perfectly safe with my feet movements, and while I tried some split movements in college, I don't have any plans of doing them.  With all due respect to the people here that like them (which I will admit are smarter and know more about this than me), I am not comfortable with them and don't like how they transfer power in the movement.  Again, I see and understand their purpose, but they are just not for me at this time.

I've been doing hang cleans longer than I haven't.  I figured it up, I was first introduced and taught them 17 years ago.  I don't see the outward leg movement as a "detriment" or "unathletic position."  If we were to do that, we could breakdown a lot of lifts as unathletic positions and movements. 

It's as lifelong debate.  Craig, you don't do "olympic lifts," but are one of the most explosive athletes in our sport.  I am one of the few (perhaps only) who does absolutely NO Deads.  I think that's what is great about this; there's many ways to skin this cat.  You don't necessarily see the need for olympic movements, while I don't necessarily see the need for deadlifts.  Your squats are ridiculous, mine are, well, pedestrian at best.  Yet, I press quite often, and you do not.  Find your thing and go for it; that's what I've always told guys are starting up.  I think it's an interesting study; our career numbers are pretty equal.

So, as long as this is, that's my story!  I feel the "jump shrug" and hip pop is the most critical aspect of the lift, and probably the most critical aspect of my throwing.  I don't have the leg girth of half the guys here, but I hope to make up for it in explosive hips.  Hopefully that explains it better.  Also, for those interested, if you look at my current hang clean video, I do move my feet out.  That's how I plan it and how I move the weight; fast! 

Oh, and it's no ego thing.  I've grown to not care about how much other guys lift.  I love to see and here of guys moving big weights, but I know I am not the strongest guy, and neither will I ever be.  I surrendered that dream in about 7th grade. 

Just my thoughts and, like I said, there are much more credible guys in these things that have great insight (Sean, Josh, Peter, Bill, etc.).  I'm just a meathead, when you really boil it down. 

>Daniel

Craig,

Given how strong Dan is at the dynamic hang lifts, and the fact that he is also including lots of front squats and supplemental posterior chain work (as outlined above), what do you think adding full deadlifts is going to give him for an event like the WOB?  If anything, don't you think he should continue really pushing his Front Squats, which, relatively speaking of course, lag quite a bit behind his dynamic pulls?

C. Smith wrote: As much as you would like to see me add oly lifts in my programming Peter, I would like to see you get up to a 500lbs deadlift and see what it does to your throwing.  We both can dream i suppose

fyp Craig.

It could happen!