Craig,

I am largely with Josh.  FWIW, the wide lateral leg split is not something I like to see, particularly on snatches, where the solution/alernative is a front to back split of the legs, which is far superior for several reasons. 

The reason for the wide split is obviously to get under the bar, and the legs are spread instead of going into a quarter squat or half squat because (i) it is probably easier/more natural to do without practice and (ii) this style doesn't entail actually reversing directions and squatting DOWN under the bar, which is the proper way to do it if you have to. 

I am sure I have done something like this from time to time in the past when I am trying to catch the bar high (and therefore don't really initiate a squat phase) but I don't quite pull the bar high enough.  PR attempts aside, I personally believe it is preferable for a thrower to use slightly less weight and pull it high enough to catch on slightly bent legs or perhaps in a quarter squat.  The snatch can either be done the same or caught in a jerk-depth split.  The wide lateral split should really be avoided.

As Josh noted and has been discussed before several times, I personally prefer to catch my lifts for the reasons mentioned, but many other very serious athletes have done otherwise.  The key is to be honest about bar height and bar speed vs. the weight lifted.

BTW, this is why I alway note HOW I do my lifts - catching a clean on "virtually straight legs" vs. "in a half squat" are quite different things with a given weight.

Josh Roslik wrote: A missed power clean should be a squat or split clean, IMO.

Exactly!  The first time I ever cleaned 300 lbs., when I was 19, it was an ATG full clean, which I had never even attempted before, simply because I wasn't strong enough to pull it higher but was fast enough and aggressive enough to get under it.  I was power cleaning 285 very regularly at that point catching the bar in a quarter squat.

An interesting debate.  First off, I definitely see your point of the athletic stance comment.  It may be a bit of an ego thing as far as catching a big clean or snatch. But I don't know that the picture of Dan tells the whole story.  In picture 2,  Dan finishes the pull and catches the weight over his head.  From personal experience you need to pull longer to do so, than with a high pull.  I don't think this finish of the pull is captured in picture 2, but I may be wrong.  I don't think he drop squats under the weight, but continues to pull higher.  In picture 1. Dan gets a good high pull, but I think its because he is trying to snatch the weight.  I don't think it would be that high if he was just high-pulling it by intention.  This may sound ridiculous, but I know that I personally pull a weight higher when I'm trying to clean or snatch it, not just pull it.  I've tried pulls to a band height in a rack and they feel different and my training partners say that I don't pull as high.  So I think there is a big finish-pull element involved.  Here's is a video of Hossein Rezazedah jumping out wide with a big clean in a training hall video at 4:20 in the vid. So not just football guys and throwers do this.  I have seen this a number of times on training vids of great lifters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMY6mxdP0MQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMY6mxdP0MQ  

It is a real good question Craig.  Cleaning and Snatching this way may not be ideal for everyone.  I can safely say that I can hang clean 352 without a wide catch.  I know that my pull has improved by the way I almost knocked myself out with 308 under the chin, a few weeks ago.  That actually made me realize my pulling potential more than my near misses at 400.  Then again their are throwers out there that are doing no olympic type movements and are very explosive.  Many ways to rome.

I think you have to look at this being a bad angle for the feet width: I know what you're talking about, and I've always been against a severly wide leg jump with the feet.  I've seen some really wide stances, and I am not overly wide (in comparison to many hang clean or snatch movements of other lifters).

That being said, let me breakdown my theory on cleans and snatches from the hang.  There are different phases (at least I believe) that make up a succesful clean or snatch.

1. Jump Shrug: This is the "pop" from the hips.  The EXPLOSION that makes these lifts so critical (I believe) for explosive abilities from the hips.  In the first picture, you labeled it as a "miss."  It was, but I honestly never got past this first phase.  I pulled it and popped it from my hips, but knew I wasn't going to be able to progress to the other phases, so I didn't continue my pull.  If you watch the video, you'll see me "give up" on the pull, and the "pop" from my hips carries the bar up fairly high (this, is a good sign for me, even if I knew I couldn't catch it).

2.  Next, at least for the snatch, is the movement needed to pull the bar back behind the head and above the shoulders.  This, is a reason I don't do high pulls; I want a long, fast, continuous pull; all the way through.  I'm not discrediting high pulls; some guys really like them and get a lot out of them, but my thought was always that if I'm going to pull it that "high," I might as well finish the lift and catch it.  So, that's the second phase.  The difference in the two pictures is that I was in this phase during that frame.

3.  Thirdly, to me, is the gather, "catch" and stand it up.  You can gather yourself, you can catch it, but it doesn't mean you'll always catch it.  You finish the throws, right? Then finish the whole lift. 

With that, and because of the movements we do, I do not do squat cleans or snatches; these are truly "Olympic lifts."  I don't ever pretend that I'm an Olympic lifter -- I want to be a powerful athlete and simply a strong dude.  I have miles to go to be both of those. 

If you watch video of an Olympic lifter, there's really no "jump shrug."  There's a deadlift, a gather, and then a massive front squat.  To me, these are very much different.  Watch a video, and you'll see that they only pull the bar high enough to get themselves under it to squat it up.  What I do, is different.  I want to pull the snot out of the bar by firing my hips and pulling hard.  If I can get an explosive "jump shrug," then I am doing my job.  None of our events are from the floor, and all of them are essentially fired from the hips to a level higher than the chest level. 

This, I believe, relates to the wide "leg spray."  I feel perfectly safe with my feet movements, and while I tried some split movements in college, I don't have any plans of doing them.  With all due respect to the people here that like them (which I will admit are smarter and know more about this than me), I am not comfortable with them and don't like how they transfer power in the movement.  Again, I see and understand their purpose, but they are just not for me at this time.

I've been doing hang cleans longer than I haven't.  I figured it up, I was first introduced and taught them 17 years ago.  I don't see the outward leg movement as a "detriment" or "unathletic position."  If we were to do that, we could breakdown a lot of lifts as unathletic positions and movements. 

It's as lifelong debate.  Craig, you don't do "olympic lifts," but are one of the most explosive athletes in our sport.  I am one of the few (perhaps only) who does absolutely NO Deads.  I think that's what is great about this; there's many ways to skin this cat.  You don't necessarily see the need for olympic movements, while I don't necessarily see the need for deadlifts.  Your squats are ridiculous, mine are, well, pedestrian at best.  Yet, I press quite often, and you do not.  Find your thing and go for it; that's what I've always told guys are starting up.  I think it's an interesting study; our career numbers are pretty equal.

So, as long as this is, that's my story!  I feel the "jump shrug" and hip pop is the most critical aspect of the lift, and probably the most critical aspect of my throwing.  I don't have the leg girth of half the guys here, but I hope to make up for it in explosive hips.  Hopefully that explains it better.  Also, for those interested, if you look at my current hang clean video, I do move my feet out.  That's how I plan it and how I move the weight; fast! 

Oh, and it's no ego thing.  I've grown to not care about how much other guys lift.  I love to see and here of guys moving big weights, but I know I am not the strongest guy, and neither will I ever be.  I surrendered that dream in about 7th grade. 

Just my thoughts and, like I said, there are much more credible guys in these things that have great insight (Sean, Josh, Peter, Bill, etc.).  I'm just a meathead, when you really boil it down. 

>Daniel

Craig,

Given how strong Dan is at the dynamic hang lifts, and the fact that he is also including lots of front squats and supplemental posterior chain work (as outlined above), what do you think adding full deadlifts is going to give him for an event like the WOB?  If anything, don't you think he should continue really pushing his Front Squats, which, relatively speaking of course, lag quite a bit behind his dynamic pulls?

C. Smith wrote: As much as you would like to see me add oly lifts in my programming Peter, I would like to see you get up to a 500lbs deadlift and see what it does to your throwing.  We both can dream i suppose

fyp Craig.

It could happen!

BTW, given his fondness for "power training", and his history as a very strong guy who included deadlifts in his training and found them to be useful, maybe Gallagher can give us his thoughts on the matter. 

Anyone else too of course!

Josh Roslik wrote: Sean, In that clip Reza is doing ~80% of his max.  That's far different than landing wide at 95-100% intensity. --------------------- There are two kinds of pullers in OWL.   1.  Compact - examples include Kakhiashvili and many of the Chinese lifters.  Kahki doesn't come that close to a triple extension 2.  Explosive Overpullers - Vanev, Boeski, Sagir etc.  Lots of foot movement and a giant extension. The way they train isn't ideal for throwing.  The jump shrug is a good move for strength training, but you're right, in OWL, the object is to get under the bar fast for an optimal "catch."  The catch allows you to use bar whip/oscillation to help bounce out of the hole. I think landing in a quarter squat, over and over, is pretty much as bad for the patella and a wide split is for an ACL. I think most people (and for the sake of argument, we'll include Dan as people) should have either the split or the squat clean in their back pocket when they are at 95% or more intensity.  That way you can put the risk back onto muscle and off of tendon and ligament. (Sidebar, what's the difference between splitting wide and splitting front and back?) When I max, nowadays, I split.  Used to squat.  But look at the monster Pole shot-putter who took gold at the last Olympics.  He's like 6'13" and HE can squat clean. I just feel pretty strongly that splitting wide is a no-no.  And that there are safer, yet no less effective, options. That's it.

I think Rezazedah power cleans 484, in the training hall, because he is either focusing pulling higher, or that he wants to show himself and or other lifters that if he can power clean 484, then he can surely clean and jerk much more. I doubt its a technical issue or that its just 80% so who cares.  I think the pulling higher thing is good for throwers.  My whole emphasis in the olympic lifts is to jump with the weight.  I know this isn't what a true olympic lifter tries to do, necessarily.  Which I think we both agree upon.  You have to jump, to spread your feet.  I know I have to be a little careful with this, but I would rather do this and split catch or full squat, because I think alot more can happen with catching something deep in those positions.  Plus its dang hard to do and takes alot of practice. 

Gallagher is on to something with his partial deads.  Although, I bet he did alot of cleaning and snatching before this as a division 1 thrower.  I think its a toss-up between what's better, between heavy partial deads, and hang olympic lifts.  Why not use both?

I guess since I have been named and emailed, I will give my thoughts on the subjects.  To me, as far as catching the bar in a better position on the Olympic lifts is as simple as keeping the bar in an exact straight vertical path.  This is done by getting the chest over the bar as far as possible and moving your hips as far back as possible.  This allows the correct amount of hip drive without pulling BACK on the bar.  When you pull BACK or beyond vertical, you have to split your feet wide to catch and you are off balance just slightly.  If Dan has had back issues, it is understandable why he doesn’t “cover” the bar (in the terms of Betz).  If you watch Dan’s latest hang clean video, you can see the bar (and him) go backward ever so slightly.  This creates the wide catch.  Just another couple of inches of going over the bar or “curtseying” as I call it, he would pop the bar more straight up and come to the bar instead of the bar coming to him.  Really quite a simple fix. 

As far as the Deadlift issue vs. Olympic lifting issue.  My discussion with Craig (plus asking a guru for advice) was wondering why Dan isn’t regular over 17’ or even 18’ as much as he can hang snatch and clean.  Maybe there is something to getting your Deadlift or rack Deadlift strength up rather than solely doing Olympic moves.  Sean is correct in stating the bulk of my throwing career has been Olympic lifting and all the variants that go with those lifts.  I never really did a true Deadlift until 2006.  Although I did do heavy clean pulls (from floor to the shrug) and heavy snatch pulls so I would consider those pretty damn close to deadlifts.  In 2006, I met Ryan Stewart and he was a powerlifter/strongman only at that time.  He turned me on to doing Brad Gillingham’s Deadlift workout where you pull from the floor one week then pull from a partial height the next week and then again from floor and etc….  I found I really liked the rack Deadlift with the bar just above the kneecap because it “FELT” like a throw.  It was also the hang clean and hang snatch starting position.  It was the wob, caber pull, and counter when the hammer is at the low point and the weights for distance low points, and sheaf pulls.  It was almost the exact posture in most of those throws.  I had two major phases of lifting that year….

1.        Starting Strength (90% of training focus):  I focused on putting the bar above the knee cap on rack deadlifts and would work up to a 1 rep max one day per week.  I peaked at about 1000-1100lbs at my best.  I figured even if I could hang clean 400, 1000lbs wins!  I also did my cleans starting from this rack position as well (taking the stretch reflex out of the equation).  If you have ever tried these, they are quite hard.  I did 2 different squats during this cycle.  I would put the rack pins with the bar on it so my knees were at the same angle as the rack Deadlift and would squat the bar up from the pins.  I would also do a true box squat from parallel.  My knees can do box squats since my feet are more in front of me.  I also did a few weeks of putting the pins just below my kneecap and did deads and cleans from this height too.  I pulled occasionally from the floor but not that much.

2.       My other phase was adding the stretch reflex back into the lifts.  I remember my first week coming off the starting strength phase, I had no idea how much I could hang clean and I had 315 on the bar.  My previous best with this was about 5 reps.  That day I did 12 easy and I stopped!  Amazing for only being able to work up to 285-300lb range from the rack start.  I hit a lifetime best of 405 (this is when I finally found out the rack deads WORK) and stopped there due to feeling sloppy and pulling the bar backward.  The other interesting thing I began doing was deadlifts from a standing position, going down to the floor under control, lightly touching the floor and driving it back up to standing.  I just got a hair up my ass to mimic my standing wob.  I figured you go down with the weight and drive it back up.  I did much less squatting this phase due to this being in season.

My routine was to lift on Tuesdays only and throw almost a full games on Saturdays (minus the caber, wob, and sheaf toss….had no apparatus to train these events).  I was living in Palm Springs so I could do this all off season.  My wob went from 16’ on a good day to averaging 17’ at most games and a personal best of 17’6 standing.  I turned just about every caber and hit a personal best of 30’ in the sheaf.  My hammers felt great without over working them and I felt so much stronger when the ball was at the low point and the final pull.  I love the rack Deadlift because it really isn’t that hard on the back due to being almost upright at the point of pull.  The pull comes from the heels and legs which mimics exactly what you want to feel in the wob and caber pulls.  I also focused on reverse hypers all year long….I got to the point I could do 400-450 lbs for 5 x 10-15 (this really helped my cardio believe it or not).  This was my first year doing those too.  I now own a reverse hyper.  They are the missing link to strength and health.  They stretch you that no regular stretch can do.  Anyway, sorry for long post!  This is my post for the year!  I hope this helps some of you! 

Good thread, lots of good stuff in here.

I'm going to be the wet blanket out here before there's a sudden wave of lower back compression injuries from heavy rack deads, though. Keep one thing in mind, kids: YOU AREN'T THESE GUYS.

Something a lot of people forget. I'm not saying the rack deads won't work for you. I'm not saying heavy, ugly (sorry, Dan!) hang cleans won't work for you. But I AM saying that don't necessarily train like your favorite HG Pro just because it seems to work for them.

There's one thing that's come up now from every single one of these guys and it's subtle and most people won't see it: not a single one of these guys trains like another one. They've all got one thing in common, though: THEY TRAIN WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THEM.

Work YOUR body the way it's best for YOU. Not your body like you want to be Sean Betz or Dan McKim or Craig Smith or Ryan Vierra or big Johnny G. The other option is a lot of pain and damage.

Try tons of stuff out. But don't smash yourself desperately trying to match workouts and numbers because someone else saw some good things from something else.

Gotta find what works for you, kids.

I think you're dead on about the build thing, John. That's why it'll probably work great guns for you too, Joshy.

I already know what it'd do to me if I wasn't smart about it :)

Sorry to chime in here again, but I wanted to echo John's last post.  Despite being 6'3" tall, I have relatively short legs as well, and although I can maintain a safe and strong position pulling from the floor, my strength is very poor from that position.  This isn't really an issue on Power Cleans, but it is very apparant on "heavy" deads, as anyone who has checked out my training log will know.

Everyone I have worked with who had long legs and a short torso was a natural deadlifter, but generally had trouble getting into a deep squat position, something that is very comfortable for me.  This is an issue that a lot of people know about but often gets overlooked.

BTW, the same thing is often apparant in the different builds of the top snatchers vs. the top guys in the C&J in Olympic lifting.  The top snatchers usually have more of a "deadlifting" build while the guys who excel at the C&J are usually built like squatters.

Now someone just has to bring up the long muscle bellies vs. long tendons element to explain relative differences in strength vs. power...

Josh, I never used any squat movement as the main lift at any time in my throwing career.  It was used as an assistant lift AFTER any pulling (oly pulls or dead lift pulls).  I never spent any session used solely for testing.  Any testing was a part of the workout for that day.  The same for upper body pressing, to the point and not dragged out.  In 2006, (my last year of real training), I did virtually no pressing. 

Dear Mr. Natural.  I cannot speak of all training.  For I would be out of a job!   (oh wait, working for yourself is about be out of a job).  Besides, I am merely attempting to remain on point.  I wouldn't want to bore you with too many and long posts.

Honestly, I think once you've hit a certain level in the squat, you don't need to regularly get back there.

Now, your mileage may vary due to build. Some guys can squat all day long (I'm lookin at YOU, Craig Smith) and it won't damage them at all.

If you're all limbs and horror like me and Betz, that shit will tear you to bits long before you get anything out of it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: during season, you could probably hit sets of 5 of the squat between 80-90% of your best POWER CLEAN WEIGHT and you'd get everything you needed out of it.

Let the wailing and wringing of hands begin :)

You already know you're pretty, Dan. :)

And strong? Yep. Explosive? Holy crap, yes.

But those hang cleans are kiss-your-first-cousin ugly, pal :)

Just wanted to toss one more big props to John for the point about scheduling time off. This is an absolute necessity.

Time off will happen. Either you can plan for it and it's just part of your normal routine, or you can catastophically hit the wall and take off a season to repair the damage.

Jeff Ingram turned me on to 3 on, 1 off for training and it's been working great guns. You can push those three weeks HARD and then undo a ton of damage and buildup in a week off.

Switching up some exercises doesn't hurt either.

I would still be a regular meat head if it was not for John Gallagher. I was lucky enough to mix my training skills with his. I dont believe in training harder, I beleive in training smarter. I dont post my gym #s or even what I do in the gym, for one cause I dont think anyone cares but I dont feel like I have earned the rite. I Do feel that the rack dead can play a huge role in big throws and can help you stay injury free in the lower back. Its hard for me to say that big Dan should change something in his training cause the guy throws bombs. But yes I think it would help Dan a ton to do heavy rack pulls. But Dan knows his body better than any of us. so if he feels like doing it is going to get him hurt.. then I say no. Dan already throws further than 99.9% of the planet. This sport is also a battle of atrition(spell). Staying healthy longer than the other guys also plays into winning.

This has been a great thread.  One word of caution with the partial range deadlifts, is to progress very slowly on them.  Lyle Barron wrecked his back something fierce last off-season doing some big weights with partials.  I think he may of retired.  I don't know if his injury had anything to do with it or not.  He was hitting some huge throws in 09 before he was injured.  Even doing 100lbs more than your normal deadlift will put some good stress on your body, and probably give you some benefit.

Guys where would the Rdl fit in with the rack pulls?

I was helping Lyle with his lifting and know a little of his story.  He retired due to a few reasons.  He worked ungodly shifts, wanted more time with family when he wasn't working, and yes, continuous back issues.  He has been dealing with his back issues for a good part of his life due to multiple car accidents, cervical fractures, and numerous pulls/strains.  Lyle had built up to some very very good lifting numbers in '09 and starting the '10 season.  He told me his back issues had nothing to do with his decision to retire.  Just wanted to set the record straight. 

I do agree with Betz on the fact that no matter what you are lifting, progress slowly and you will be in the game for the long haul.  I see too many lifters think they need to stick to a strict schedule according to what is written on a piece of paper or in a book.  START listening to your body more!  If your body says you need more rest, then take more rest!  The one workout I always wanted to be fresh and ready for was my Saturday THROWING and TECHNIQUE session!  If I had to give up my lift on Tuesday because I was not recovered, I sacraficed it for that week and rested to be ready to throw because that is what I was....a THROWER FIRST!

As far as where do RDL's fit into the program?  Think about it, RDL's work the exact same muscle grouping as deadlifts of any kind.  What helped me was looking at what muscle group every single exercise works.  This is how to prevent overtraining.  If you just did x amount of reps and x amount of weight on a rack dead lift....do you really need to do x amount of more lifting with the same muscle grouping?  What is your purpose?  You have to be sure of why you are doing an exercise and what purpose is it surving in the grand scheme of things.  Is it going to cut into your recovery for the next training session?  Your body is one system.  It is not broken into individual parts as some seem to think.  If that system is out of gas, you wait until the tank is full again or suffer the consequences.   

I'm with John on this.  Lyle had some of the best caber and WOB pulls, for a guy that wasn't as big as many of the pro athletes.  Its probably due to his impressive hip strength with the partial deads.  You could reallys see it in O9.  

I think the RDL is a great lift.  It really teaches you how to fully stretch your hamstrings and glutes, and maintain a good back position.  I see a number of throwers that don't do this when the throw the standing WOB.  They think that they need to squat the weight up.  I really focused on the stretching the hammies on the way down with the weight, last year.  If you think about it, the less you bend your knees on the way back, the bigger swing you can get.  The RDL really mimics this.  A fully stretched muscle is able to use more force, longer.  Then by reacting with the legs, the weight gets a longer scoop and your able to exert more force.  That is why Pulcinella is so great at the event. I bet he can RDL the house.  If I were coaching in high school or college, I would really emphasize the RDL for young athletes.  It is the basis behind olympic lifting and puts the pressure on the best muscles to work on for most sports.  I spent alot of my career working on this lift.  I still include it sometimes during my training as well.  Sorry to ramble on. 

"No set days at all. My off season program has a format to it.. but is still based most on feel when it comes to the volume. I think Duncan Mccallum got a good taste of how hard my offseason training is this year. Duncan did every rep of every set and I dont know how he did it. Cazy volume! But he can recover like few I have ever seen."

Um, this is no joke, and I'm not about to kiss any ass.  I went into this thinking "General Physical Prep?  Man, I AM Physical Prep!"  Clearly, I was not as hard as I thought.  It was a beatdown every session, but the proof was in the pudding.  I went from 70+ every once in awhile to 70+ every other throw.  LHammer was normally between 100-110, then it got out there over 115 everytime I picked it up.  HHammer over 90 consistently.  Lots of rest, lots of water, lots of protein.

It can be done.  I did it.  Next year, I'll do it again.

Great thread.

Josh Roslik wrote: Another big factor in program success is whether or not you believe in it.

This is actually HUGE. If you 100% believe in what you are doing, you stay focused and get everything you can out of your training. if you start to question it, you'll start to wander and pretty soon your training is back to being a complete mashup.

Tim P wrote: 2 things I wonder about though; Is it possible to do a reasonable amt of cardio on "off" days without sacrificing gains? To me reasonable means 3-5 days a week of 30 mins or more getting the heartrate up to 75%+. I love my heart and lungs, and want them to be healthy and strong first and foremost. And...ligament/tendon health. Opinions on the difference between moderate and frequent lifting versus heavy/intense but less frequent?

Cardio for health purposes can take two forms (don't worry about the heart rate): moderate of "talk but can't sing", or vigorous of "can only say a few words before having to take a breath". 

For moderate, recommendations are 150 minutes per week, done for at least 10 minutes at a time.  For vigorous, 75 minutes per week, done for at least 10 minutes at a time.  Can mix/match, but how? 

Since both are done for at least 10 minutes at a time, count vigorous for twice as long toward a 150 minute weekly total (vigorous has twice the oxygen and metabolic demand of moderate).'

Intervals can be great time savers.  As long as you can honestly say you meet the above "talk test" criteria, your "cardio" can range from simple brisk walking for a moderate day to vigorous sled dragging or kb work for another day.

Teresa Merrick, Ph.D./Bellevue, NE

A lot of guys fear the cardio for getting smaller, but I always look at this, in terms of cardio:

You never see fat, weak, slow sprinters.

Interval training kicks ass. Specifically, yours.

I still like the regular bouts of just boring old cardio, but usually just as a warmup for an extended stretching session.

But don't be afraid of sweating to stay healthy. It's not cool to be out of breath walking to the beer tent.

I DID like the small addition of your accomplishments right after the "don't need any more ego boosts" comment, though.

It's kind of like saying "I don't mean to brag but seriously, it's massive. Like a baby's arm holding an orange."