My Informal Survey: why do people go?

The people you call 'regulars' are more like what I'd
call 'professional Scots'. I'd call the vast majority of
your respondents regulars, in that they go to one or more
games every year.

Given that, I'm surprised at the interest in the vendors:
as a regular, how many times can you look at the same
stuff? I'm also surprised that you're finding other
music so weak: it's a major draw at a lot of the bigger
games. The Celtic Classic may be the ultimate example of
this, and it's a major source of income at Loon.

There are a few themes in your results that resonate,
though:
- Dance competitions aren't a good draw. This isn't
because it's not interesting or aesthetic, but because
dance parents go to extremes to control the environment.
For the most part, they don't want people watching their
kids dance, or could care less whether spectators have a
decent view. It takes leadership from the dance director
to counteract this tendency and connect the dancing to
the games.
- Clan tents are not very popular. In a lot of games,
these are the people who control the games, yet
spectators aren't really interested in what they have to
offer.
- Historic re-enactors are of almost no interest. They
don't come across as friendly and engaging, but as
interested in doing their own (odd) thing.
- Very few people care about a piping competition.
Consider this: you could probably get the same spectator
interest from a single, good band (aka a guest band) as a
pile of lesser bands. This would never happen, because
it would violate everything the pipers stand for, but the
cost would be lower and the logistical complexity of the
games greatly simplified.

I'd be interested to see the results of real surveys at
different games. I think we'd find some variation from
games to games.

Alan, I do not have facebook but the Maine Highland Games has a page, and a few years ago they did an official survey and I would not be surprised if it were still up there. If not, Sue Redwine-Cole may be able to provide you with the data... if your interested. The survey was given out at the gate, online and to the members of the St. Andrews Society of Maine.

I strongly agree that the results of any survey are going to be games-specific. Most people who go to games or festivals only go to one. They may go back year after year but it's still just that one event. And what draws them is whatever the games are promoting. Conduct the survey one place, and athletics will be high on the list. Somewhere else, athletics won't register at all.

Feature X in the ads, put X on the t-shirts, put X on the program cover with a detailed article inside, have X in a central, easy-access location with comfortable seating and good views, have a good announcer for X, and make sure your volunteers talk up X, and you'll build an audience for X. And then if you deliver a good show, next year people will come back to see X, and will bring others with them. What X is doesn't matter. Athletics, dancing, piping, rock bands, or a haggis-eating contest, who cares? People are coming to see a novelty. Promote the hell out of it, get butts in the seats, and then deliver a good show. That's your top draw next year.

Given that, it's always easier to promote a spectacle. A pipe band may draw attention. 20 massed bands draw a big crowd. The stone throw may draw attention. Caber tossing draws a crowd. Clan tents usually have nothing worth seeing unless you're part of that clan.

Ask the people when they leave "what was the best thing you saw today"  Guarantee it will be Athletics. 
When you have a game and the crowd is 10 deep all around the sides, there loving themselves some Heavies... 

+1 to everything written here so far.  Gene,  it's absolutely true that lots of people enjoy the Heavies. The only thing is,  we may have 400 people watching us when the caber is up. But at the same time, over at the Massed Bands, there are 2,000 people.

The breakdown of who was asked....as best as I can remember.

8-9 people in the lunch line for some food vendor.. I don't remember which one.... at lunchtime in Ventura.  Totally random, the only factor in common was that they were in line for lunch.  I have no idea what they're interested in.

About 30 people from an online forum that I participate in, which is about kilts and Scottish culture.  These guys and gals LOVE kilts, which may have something to do with how well the "vendors" scored.  Participants are from all over North America. There are even three Scottish respondants, but their responses are so ...well.... uninterested..that I didn't include them.

6 people  are from  a small kilts and Scottish Culture group that I participate in, on Facebook.  These are from all over North America.

Any "special interests"?  Yes, there are three athletes in this group, one is a total newbie.  There are 4-5 pipers.  There are 3-4 Clan conveners.  There's a couple where both of them do Scottish Country Dance.  There are two kiltmakers who have booths at the Games. There are two people who participate in Re-enactments.  There's one veterinarian who LOVES to take her kids to go see the animals.  So there's a little bit of a lot of stuff in there.

+1  to the idea that there are regional differences in what's a "draw" to the Games. THIS....important.

And finally, as I said to the Board that I work with...this "interest" survey is not the only measurement of how a Games should be run. For example, Athletics is basically a direct cash outlay, here in California, for the Board. The Board pays the SHA or the SAAA $1.7 - $2.5 thousand bucks to put on the show. There is no direct cash back to the Games committee from this, all the monetary benefit is peripheral, in that having athletics draws people who will pay at the Gate or buy a lunch.

Compare that to the beer trailer. You lay out $800 for a trailer and five kegs.  You set up a fence to define the Beer Garden.  You get 4 Club volunteers to dish the stuff up and take the money. At the end of the day pocket a $300 - $1K profit.   So...what?  Throw the athletes out...or even easier if you're just looking at money...throw out the Highland Dancers,  and put in four beer Gardens?  That makes no sense.

How about Vendors? Most Vendors pay a tent space fee, which is anywhere from $25 to $300 depending on the size of their space and the size of the event.  So a big Games like Pleasanton might see $10,000  or more  income from Vendor space fees.  Even my little Games takes in almost $800 in Vendor tent fees.

There are other ways to measure "priority".  Notice that not ONE person mentioned a childrens glen area.  However, at our event, which is heavily family-oriented, our kids Glen is HUGE.  People LOVE it.  There's a kids Athletics area at Enumclaw. I stood there for half an hour and watched kid after kid after kid go in there and throw a caber or a rolling pin while mom and dad snapped pictures.   That cost *Nothing*....literally *Nothing* and people loved it.   It would be stupid for us to kill  off  our Childrens Glen  just because it didn't make the list.

Another way to look at it, is in terms of square feet. How many square feet do you need in order to put on event X?   Athletics doesn't take a lot more room than anything else.  But Scottish Country Dance doesn't take anything more than a 20 x 20 foot stage and a 10 x 10 tent space.  In terms of real estate, SCD is stupid-cheap, and they don't charge the Games committee much, if anything, to show up. 

By this measure, non-pipe-band entertainment is blisteringly expensive, especially if you factor in the space they need. If you book in a big-name Celtic rock band or Albannach or the Wicked Tinkers or something like that, it's going to be $1,000 per band for the day. Let's say you get two "big names"  in there, and then fill in with two less expensive bands so that you get a full 8 hours of music on your main stage. The Stage plus the seating is probably 100 x 200, and you just dropped about $3500 PLUS the cost for the sound system and the techie sitting at the board. $4,000  to fill up a 100 x 200 space.  That makes Athletics look pretty good.

The relationship between Expense/square feet needed is interesting.  Athletics is somewhat expensive if you look at it this way.  $2K to the organizers for 20,000 square feet (200 x 100 foot field) is a lot, though half as much as the non-pipe-band music (if you get big names).   In comparison to that, Living History Re-enactors are dirt cheap. They show up more or less for free, and you can cram 6 guilds into the space needed for Athletics.

So this little survey is not the be-all, end-all of understanding Games attendance.

Craig, I can't speak for the SAAA, but since the SAAA and the SHA share common roots, I expect that they're much the same.

***All the implements, with backups in case of breakage, and then more backups.  All are weighed in, and documented.

I figured out a rough estimate for my board, once...what would it cost to have all the gear for a 7-event Games, with backups for each implement? (O-stone, B-stone, LWFD, LH, WOB, caber, sheaf) I looked up Bobby Dodd and Old Celt prices.  It came out to about $1,000.  Go see what Mjolnir hammers charges for a 56 WOB and a 42 WOB. Now buy two of them, so you have a backup.


***A quiver of cabers.  How many clubs that don't have a seriously dedicated athlete on board have access to enough cabers of different sizes to put on a Games with A, B, C, Masters and womens classes?  How many athletes have that?  You need 6-7 cabers to cover the range.   I happen to have that because I run the Cardinal Highland Athletic Club, but I'm a crazy man.

***A real hammer cage that will actually stop a lost hammer. This allows the spectators to get a lot closer to the event. If you've looked into what netting that will stop a hammer costs, you'll discover that 9 feet x 40 feet is going to run upwards of $500 and more, and that's from a netting supply place. Baseball backstop netting doesn't cut it. Neither does T&F net NCAA certified for discus.  If you try to buy it from a T&F outlet it will cost double that.  Do you want to buy a whole cage? If you know a welder, you can knock together 6 uprights for $300 from steel tubing. if you have to buy one, you can actually purchase NCAA certified hammer cages from T&F outlet stores. They're a lot taller than the cages we use, but they're also $3,000 and up.  You can also use welded wire fence, or chain link fence sections, but try to store that crap. It's a PITA...I know I have welded wire fence at home for our hammer cage.

***Certified judges, so the marks "count".   The trigs get set up right.  Fouls get noted. The SHA also enters your marks in the NASGA database for you. SAAA does not.   Judges make $100 - $150 a day.  Is that out of line?  Are we paying more than everybody else?  Ask Wally Olecik what he pays his judges at Enumclaw.

****Oh, is your Games in Snookerville?  Isn't that a four hour drive from where any of the judges actually live?   Oh, then we'll need to get some hotel rooms, huh?    Oh, and how do we get implements, cages, tents, tables, computers, icewater, coolers, on and on and on and on OUT to Snookerville?  I guess there has to be a truck, huh? I guess the truck needs new tires now and then.  Besides, carrying all that stuff wears out transmissions. Oh, and I guess they need to carry liability insurance on the truck, too... just in case they plow into Mrs. Weasley and the doggies on the highway en route to Snookerville.

***Athletics-specifics insurance.  Just try to get insurance that specifically covers Scottish Heavy Athletics.  Like Jon A. told me just a few months ago....he personally witnessed three events this year that could have resulted in major lawsuits - people got hurt.  Out here in California we have something called the deep-pockets law.   Basically that says that if Party A is 90% liable for an accident, and Party B is 10% liable for an accident, and Party A is not able to pay out its share of the damages award, then Party B has to pay the whole damn thing.  So what's happened is that lawyers always try to find the organization with the deepest pockets they can, and include them in the lawsuit.

I run the Cardinal Higland Athletic Club. That sounds like "Stanford" doesn't it?  So if my very low-key unofficial Club runs a Games  and somebody gets hurt, a smart lawyer will sue Stanford for 1% of the damages. Of course our little Scottish Association doesn't have the resources to pay out millions of dollars, so the court takes it out of Stanford.

I'm not making this up, gentlemen.  This is how it works in California.  This is why I don't use any Stanford logos in our Club schwag. I don't use the Stanford name. I probably shouldn't even use the word "Cardinal".   And I won't put on an event where I have the slightest shadow of a worry that someone might sue, unless I have insurance.

***Prizes and certificates....tchotches to take home; sometimes a sgian dubh, sometimes a bottle of whisky, sometimes just the certificate.

***setup, breakdown and storage of all the cr@p.  How many Saint Andrews Society members want to store a hammer cage and ten cabers in their garage?


BTW, my understanding is that the low end....the $1.7 thousand range is for a One Day Games.  If you want two days, that's where it goes up to $2.2 thousand-plus.

Wayne Hill wrote: In New England, an AD typically makes less than $400 for a 1-day games (often nothing at all), providing all equipment and handling up to about 30 athletes. Any fee definitely does not cover costs, so anyone who ADs in New England is giving back. The games (as non-profits) provide the insurance. We have no certified judges.

I'm estimating that my budget this year for the Games that I'm AD'ing will be about $500.  There will be no Pro class, unless I decide, personally, to go raise $3000+ to bring them in. This $500 will go to getting 3 actual fiberglass crossbars, getting 3 sheafs from Jon Sisseck, and maybe a little 100-watt, battery powered PA system.

Some of the guys on the field are certified judges, but they're there to throw, not judge. We call our own foot fouls, and girlfriends/kids pull tape and write down scores.

Last year we had 24 athletes. This year I'll add a High School Athletes class, so we'll probably have about 32.  A friend is making a targe for a High  School Class perpetual trophy....at his expense.

I made the WOB and Sheaf standards from  galvanzied electrical conduit and scrounged galvanized fence posts. I bought all the hardware and rope for the standards at my own personal expense, though that wasn't all that much money, probably <$80 for blocks, eye bolts, rope and steel stakes. In the past we've used 2-inch ABS pipe for the crossbars. That's fine but they break a lot.

Implements?  I bring the CHAC implements, which I have all purchased, personally, myself at my own expense.  Other people bring in their practice gear.  Our 56 WOB is a Bobby  Dodd weight. The 28 WFD is a Bobby Dodd weight. The Hammers are all Bobby Dodd stuff, since I spent a bunch of the travel money that  Wally Olecik paid me for going to Enumclaw, on CHAC practice gear.

This year we have a real, dedicated 28 pound WOB for the women, we don't have to disassemble my 28 pound WFD to make it.  Stones are cheap from the garden supply store, and the store has a scale on-site so I know that I'm getting stones that are at least close to weighing in.

Cabers?  I scrounge them. I've bought a couple of Home Depot 6 x 6's and they're OK but natural trees are better.  Assuming I can get the one off of Skyline Blvd that I saw two weeks ago, we'll have a good A stick at 17 feet and about 100 lbs....a B/Masters-stick at 16 feet and 87 pounds.... a C-mens/A-womens caber at about 14' 8" or 15" and  55 pounds, and a newbie mens stick at 15" and 40 pounds. I even have a newbie womens stick, good for the high school girls too at 1`3' and 30 pounds.

I have obtained these by calling arborist companies, the Stanford Arboretum, or begging favors from friends with cabins in the mountains.

Trigs...all Home Depot lumber purchased, painted and drilled for stakes, by me.

Measuring tapes...I bought them.  The hammer cage is 6 cement/tire/pole volleyball poles that are on-site with 6 foot tall welded wire zip-tied to the poles.  It's ugly, but it will stop a hammer....it did exactly that last year.  I bought the welded wire, at my own expense.  This year we're going to have a sun-shade over table where the scorekeeping goes on.  I saw a super-cheap way to make one, at Ventura.

This is how our Games are run.  I always figured that most Games really were more like this than the full-on Productions that I'm used to.  I consider this to be a glorified Demo Day, not a real Games. Yes, there are two thousand people attending the event. There are pipe bands there...Celtic Rock bands. ...a childrens Glen...food vendors, clothing vendors etc.  A dozen clan tents are there. It's a GAMES..... but I can't hire four-five certified judges  to supervise, so I don't put the scores up here on NASGA. It's a demo day, not a "real" Games where the numbers "count".


That's how we do it for Ardenwood Tartan Day. I learned this year that my Board did not have insurance for any special events. They just had general liability. I am making DAMN sure that the new policy for 2012 lists Scottish Heavy Athletics, specifically in the coverage. If it doesn't, I'm not putting on athletics, again.

I wonder if this sort of information exchange...about what the AD's do for different Games, has happened before...