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UPDATED - Need help from mechanical types |
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Mike Wills
Senior Member Joined: 12/27/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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Posted: 2/09/09 at 7:43am |
Below is an idea that I have for making sheaf upright set up and take down a lot faster, easier, and less labor intensive. Can anyone provide any additional thoughts regarding the design or help me get from the concept stage to actual production?
UPDATE - I thought I should resize the image and update it to more accurately reflect what I am thinking about. |
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lowellthompson
Newbie Joined: 11/29/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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That looks like a good system, and I to believe aluminum is the way to go. We've been using a similar system with the RMSA. Wayne Staggs and Greg Bradshaw built are's and there out of aluminum.
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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Is that kinda what the Ancient Athletics guys have? The MOASS? Best sheaf standards ever.
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Mike Wills
Senior Member Joined: 12/27/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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No clue...it was an idea that I formulated based upon the troubles I see at games in getting the standards up and down. I should have known that someone would have already thought of it! I'll bet the Wayne Hill version is complete with hydraulics!
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JReed
Groupie Joined: 2/03/09 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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You might want to talk with Tom Blythe in North Carolina. He builds sheaf standards very similar to what you are suggesting. They work very well.
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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anyone got a design for a 1 pole standards? I am just looking to adjust to work WOB in the backyard.
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dWood
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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PLAIN AND SIMPLE CONTACT WAYNE THE BRAIN,or Mr Wayne Hill as those who love him call him!!!
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JUST BRING IT /
SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES |
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Wayne Hill
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2935 |
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I'm not sure how much I can advise on this. My WOB uprights are definitely not a low-manpower setup. We typically use at least 6 people to set them up (two at each base, two walking the uprights up, and two tending guy lines). I can see how you'd like the idea of setting up one upright at a time, but I don't know that I'd rely on a foot-square base to keep an upright standing until you have your guy lines out. I don't know how big it would have to be for me to trust it.
I'm not sure I'm one to talk anyway: my uprights came down in the middle of the Loon games last fall, and it's worth talking about why. I use four heavy rebar stakes to guy out the uprights. At one point in the games, one of the stakes was removed from the ground (I think to make way for the Highlanders during the Husafell Stone carry) and the line tied off somewhere else. After the event, the stake was simply slid back into the same hole and the line reattached. Later on, Robert Troupe had a bad miss with the 56, as only Robert could, basically lifting the end of the rig like it was hit with a sledge hammer. This happened to put a big load on that one stake, which came out of the ground, and down came the whole rig. That was scary. Two points:
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"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Ak thrower
Senior Member Joined: 10/28/06 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Im not sure how you would stand the poles up without bending them . I built a single leg with braces W.O.B stand that telescopes up or down with a boat winch , but it doesn't go high enough for sheaf ,,, but I believe one could be built to go that high very easily ! Bret |
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Remember when mom told us never throw stones ?
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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I think the base depends on the style of uprights you are going to build. From the variety of games I have gone to, I have seen three types of
Kevin Henderson design - 2 x 2 Steel Tub welded into a Square The base in this configuration is designed to hold the bottom of the
Dennis Hunter (Cedar Rapids (Iowa) Games equipment manager) Design - Tube Steel T Base He has a small T (with each part of the "T" about 2 feet long) with
BTW, he uses rebar stakes with a modification where he has welded a So those are three types of bases on two different types of uprights (stand Independently or stands as a unit) |
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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The higher the Stubs, the longer the short end of the lever and the the more work that is done with the same amount of force (did I say that correctly?) ... However, longer stubs means harder to store and haul.
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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Improvements #1: For those uprights that work as a unit, most people erect both towers at the same time because of the cross cable connecting each tower. This is not necessary as there is a way to set up one upright at a time thus cutting down on man power needed. Connect a rope to the top of one tower, and have a knot (or some kind of stop) in the rope at the appropriate spacing distance of the uprights. Pass this rope through a pulley (or I-bolt) at the top of the other upright (obviously before it is erected). Setup one tower, tie it off, then set up the second tower and pull the connector rope down until the knot (or stop) is tight against the pulley (I-Bolt) and tie that rope off on the bottom of the upright. There is no need to raise both uprights at the same time doing it this way. Jason Clevenger implemented this idea and it works. Improvement #2 by Jason Clevenger - Brilliant improvement He wielded a flange of flat sheet stock to the upright where he wanted to connect his guy wires, this flange extends out about 6 or more inches from the tower thus moving the ropes away from the pulley system that raises and lowers the crossbar. No more hang ups on the guy wires!!! Improvement #3: Jason and I came up with this idea at the same time but separately. However, he was the first to make one that I know of. The "Club" cross bar. As the cross bar goes up, it may swing away from the towers or if the towers bow apart, it may be dangling in the breeze. So people have used big ass U-bolts around the uprights and through the cross bar to keep it close to the uprights (only can tie off at the top). If you use a steel cross bar, then you can make each end like the "Club", the so called car theft prevention device. This way you can attach the guy wires anywhere you want and the cross bar will not get hung up on it (especially if you incorporate Jason Clevenger's above improvements. -------------- People in St. Louis did some reengineering to some uprights and they stand like 45' tall. They may have some input. |
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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As for improvement to your design, it is a matter of preference: Some My view: I cannot afford a big chunck of sheet steel like what Ancient I hope the posts are of some help. I have been kicking around designs for uprights for the last 5 years and have yet to build one. Recently, Jason Clevenger has gone through a lot of designs has come up with a pretty damn good uprights uses bits and peices from each and some ideas of hsi own. He may be a throw out some ideas of what he wished he did differently.
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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The point I was trying to make: the wider the base or the heavier the base, the more stabile the base. Both wide bases and heavy bases are a bitch to transport. However,
both of these measures should increase the stability with out making it hard to transport.
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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FrankH
Senior Member Joined: 5/22/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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A related question: At the MWC in New Hampshire in 2005 they used a cherry-picker of some sort with a bar (PVC?) attached. Obv easy to run up and down with hydraulics, no set up or break down and a great opportunity to hang up a big sponsor banner. I know they are used elsewhere (I believe I recall seeing a video of one at the Celtic Classic and know there are others) and this seems like a great way to go. (Although I hear they are prohibited on fields with sprinkler systems.) How hard is it to find companies to sponsor these? Is there a national company (United Rentals?) who is good about doing this? Seems like even if they didn't recoup the cost of the sponsorship in business, they can also write down the cost as an advertising business expense. Anyone have a tactic for getting these kinds of sponsorships? Sorry if this is a hijack. |
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Mike Wills
Senior Member Joined: 12/27/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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First, thanks for all of the input. Mark, no one could accuse you of not putting effort into the games!
I'm not looking for the base to provide the primary support for the sheaf standards. Instead, I'm looking for a simpler way to get it up and down. I've only done Dave McKenzie and Dave Strunk games, and we always drive a rod in the ground, stand the poles up with like 8+ people, lift and place the poles over the rods, and then start trying to straighten the poles with the guy ropes. It can be very labor intensive and time consuming. What I want to do is a little engineering ahead of time to speed up the process while requiring fewer people. The pivot base could even have someone standing on it. What I'm thinking about is laying out the rope attachment heights, the distance and angles of the guy rope stakes from uprights, etc. You can then calculate the length of the guy ropes and use some sort of adjustable piece at the end of each for fine tuning and to allow for uneven ground. This should let you hook up 2/3 of the guy ropes to their stakes while the upright is on the ground...then using the pivot base (maybe with someone standing one it for extra safety)...one person could stand it up by using equal pressure on the unattached ropes and simply snap them onto the final stake. |
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axelson
Senior Member Joined: 2/14/06 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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I have a friend who designed a single post T- shaped standard for WOB. It takes two people to set up and costs about $20.00 in materails from Home Depot or Lowes. IT's very effective and goes to 16 ft. I'll call him and have him post the plans here.
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brandell
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2433 |
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Axelson, that would be perfect for what I am needing in the back yard. If you can get those plans it would be appreciated!
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lowellthompson
Newbie Joined: 11/29/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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Hey Brandell . I have a similar T-shaped standard for WOB. Not for competition use, and bad in high winds . I paid about 20 bucks . I used one 5/8 x 6 feet rebar, one 3/4 dia x 8 feet aluminum tubing, and two 1" dia x 10 feet PVC. Also a T-shaped PVC adaptor and some PVC cement. Step one is pound the rebar in the ground 3 feet so 3 feet sticks out of the ground.Step two, Drill your pin holes through the aluminum at 5,6 and 7 feet .Step three , take your 10 foot section of PVC and drill your pin holes starting at one end drilling every 6 inches for 5 feet of its length . Step four , fix the T-shaped adapter on the top with the cement , Cut your horizontals 3 or 4 feet in length and join them to the adapter. Step five put it all together, slide the aluminum into the PVC , lift the hole thing up and slide it over the rebar, find a pin for the holes and your ready to throw. Its stable at 16 feet and will go to 17 not so stable. Yes its cheap but it works.
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WALLY.OLECIK
Postaholic Joined: 10/10/08 Location: W. Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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Been there, done that, still have the T-shirt!! l'm thinkin' that those corkscrew lookin' thingys that they use to thether horses, and such, might be the answer to avoiding having stakes pull out of the ground |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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Ops sorry, I went on a tangent. Your idea will work - I do pre-drive my stakes in but I do not pre-tie the guy wires offs. Short roping a guy wires is the risk of pre-tieing the guy wires. If that happens, either the tower comes back down (and the guy wire lengthened) or someone will have to stop lifting and run over and lengthen the guy wire. That would suck. With the base as you have suggesting, I think you will find that you do not need to pre-tie the guy wires as the base will probably provide enough stability so that a man can easily hold the upright in place while others work the ropes. - obviously the base will be staked and some simple simple device will clamp/pin/lock the upright in vertical position. I think you will find that your setup will comes down to whether you spend time in the layout phase before erecting the up rights or time spent after erecting the uprights to get them perpendicular and evenly spaced. Some use ratchet straps to adjust the guy wires, I do not because my family owned a tent and expo company and I have lots of practice tying "tent knots" (not sure what the boy scouts call them). I think you will save a lot on setup time and need fewer bodies over what you were doing. After a few setups, you may want to consider two methods of keeping the uprights the same distance apart as your guy wires will have a tendency to pull the uprights apart: (1) Merl Lawless and the gang at ancient athletics has attached a ratchet strap to each upright at about 8' off the ground ... this helps to prevent the uprights from pulling apart -- his uprights guy wires are not attached at the top. (2) The other method was described in previous post and employed by Jason Clevenger on how to get a top connection wire without having to set up both uprights at the same time.
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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This will help in your layout The relationship between athe lengths of the sides of an equilateral (L) inscribed in a circle of raduis R is R= L * Sqrt(3)/3 or L = R * 3/ Sqrt(3) where Sqrt is the square root function. in your case of 20 ft raduis stake line, L = 34' 7.6922" or the better part of 34' 7-11/16"
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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McSanta
Postaholic Joined: 4/12/05 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1595 |
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Something to consider that may cause a problem. Even though the 120 degrees angle between each stake as your layout indicates works great for erecting perpendicular towers, this staking pattern may cause the guy ropes to be hit by the sheaf bag on the downside of the arch -- Mathematically, the ropes cross in the middle of the uprights and 2.88675' behind the uprights on the landing side when using the equal slice of pie method. This is true no matter what the radius of the circle used as this is independent of that radius. The height off the ground where the two guy wires cross depends on the radius of the circle (R) used for the stake line as well as the height where the guy wires attach (GWH) to the uprights. Height off the ground where the Guy wires cross = GWH - GWH/R*5.7735 --- works out to be about 71% of the height in which the guy wire is connected to the upright. When the guy wires are attached at 39', the wires cross 27.74' off the ground and 2.89' behind the uprights attached at 26' , wires cross 18.50' off the ground and 2.89' behind the uprights attached at 13' , wires cross 9.25' off the ground and 2.89' behind the uprights I fear that the guy wires will be hit by the sheaf on the way back down. Because of this, I have never set my stakes in this pattern. DOES ANYBODY HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THIS If you agree, then you may have to change the position of one or both of the guy wire stakes on the landing side of the uprights to minimize the chances the wires will be hit. I view the layout of the guy wires more like a peace sign than equal slices of a pie. The wedge away from the throwing area is smallest. I have put the stakes where the two circles intersect as my picture in my first post indicates. Moving the stakes may lead you back to my comments on how to avoid the having the distance between the uprights from getting wider as the uprights get higher.
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Mark McVey
"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
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Riddle
Newbie Joined: 5/13/07 Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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Instead of rebar try an earth anchor, screws in: 4" x 40" long
At the Scarecrow games put on by Ken Crum, his WOB standards were pretty quick to set up, he used kegs to weigh down the base, had a piece of large pipe set into the base (don't know if it was welded to a plate or flanged & bolted) and then smaller diaper pipe that inserted into the larger diameter pipe. Don't remember how the bar was raised, but I'm thinking it was eyebolts at the top & rope w/ the crossbar. |
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Wayne Hill
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2935 |
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Hmm, those might work. I wonder if we could get those into the ground at Loon. Thanks for the tip.
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"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Hapy
Postaholic Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1977 |
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those ground anchors are useless on dry hard soil. They would probably
work ok on moist wet soil. On the dry stuff they just act as an augur and you end up with a stake in a hole which will not hold itself in. |
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S McCracken
Postaholic Craig Smith Fan Club Joined: 9/18/07 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1802 |
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Why not just make the base from steel or aluminum and the ups out of PVC. I have some tent stakes that use a screw in stake that hold very well, but if the ground is hard and dry its real hard to get them in. but once you had them in you could use a clasp or hasp to release the ropes to lay it over. |
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North American Highlander Ohio Chair
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