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Guru speaks....I am not worthy

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    Posted: 12/03/04 at 7:36am
Met w/ Jeff "Mad dog" Madden - renowned strength and conditioning coach at the U of Texas - for 45 minutes and did  some serious brain picking. He's been my cutting edge training source for 4 or 5 years - so he knows my body and our sport - also has track experience , a stint in the NFL w/ Pittspuke and a 602 bench to his credit - man's got the chops and the best gdamn weight room I ever  saw w/ ALL the toys - all he has to do is ask for it and some sheik writes a check.SO , to distill all we talked about into a post - here we go.#1-they do a ton of bilateral/balance work - ex:one-legged squats - did "em yesterday 5 sets of 5 - I am humbled- he says Cedric Benson - stud runner - does 5 sets of 10 w/ a 25lber to chest NOT holding on - by the last set w/ my left leg I was almost doing pull ups - sore as hell today in funny places - outside thigh- yowch ! -BUT none of the normal lobak/knee bar squat soreness. They only do this type of work in season w/ power cleans and plyos and normal upper body. Gotta stay fast/balanced/athletic. Lots of chain and band work - says it makes "snappy" muscles - I could use some of those. Tons of plyos - mostly w/ a weight vest- bounding one -legged type stuff w/ normal box work.#2 -They focus on 5 sets of 5 working down maybe to triples - their conditioning requirements are light years beyond ours.He encouraged me to alternate a day of 5x5 w/ a day of singles and doubles to make the training more like our sport. #3 - He is a big proponent of dragging sleds or running against some type of resistance - told me to focus on shuffling sideways pushing off the right leg transfering to the left - sound familiar? Do 'em in all directions- foward,back,skipping,etc. #4 - do workouts fast and brutal - lots of different exercises back to back - keep it under an hour if possible. #5 - loves active rest - do a bike/walk/swim the day after and stretch. #6 - Red meat elevates testosterone - our little friend.#7 - Pushed super sets - slow to fast - ex: squats or heavy cleans straight to plyo box or sled - killers. # 8 - encouraged me (as an ALMOST 45 master) to focus on speed work before power - explosion goes away first. That's all I can remember now- gotta go bike/sauna/stretch my cryin' thighs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rgriffis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/04 at 8:32am

Mike,

As a masters thrower, I would agree that the explosiveness is the first to go. But I have always wondered why? What is physiologically different. Many of us are stronger than we were when younger, but not as powerful. And how much of that explosiveness we had when younger, can we get back through proper training?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/04 at 9:26am

Did the sled thing on Wednesday and I'm still in pain.

Last year almost all of my squatting was the one-legged variety. Back foot on a bench. Sets of 5 with 135-185. Brutal. Focus on driving the hip up and FORWARD on the way up. Start light (just the bar) and be VERY careful, your knee is in an extremely vulnerable position on these.

Try the one-legged deadlift for a good time. No bench, back foot floating in the air. When you can do 5 with 225 and NEVER touch the back foot down then you will have arrived.



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Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/04 at 10:36am
Carlos - you understand - good - was worried- he has me doing the off leg lifted out in front - will try both ways - will see if I can arrive- love bizarre new exercises. rgriff - have asked that question before - Dr. Bill should chime in w/ the expert opinion - I think it has 2 causes - #1 - we stop doing the hard ,fast things we did when we were younger( use it or lose it) #2-muscles do lose elasticity (snappiness) as we age.Any experts out there? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valenti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/03/04 at 4:29pm

Mike,,,you need to come to the throws coaches seminar in Columbus next year....I have never felt so dumb in my whole life!  lots of crazy thrower guys with great ideas...well worth the $100.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skullsplitter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/04 at 9:47am
I agree Mike, master throwers and most throwers for that matter usually do not stay on top of the more ballistic exercises such as fast pulling and plyometrics, not to mention all the throwing drills.  Use it or lose it.  Doing drills with light weight, ie., turning drills with a medicine ball, are more crucial for the older thrower due to the neurologic deterioration we are experiencing.  That is a biologic fact we have to be aware of but not succumb to.  Reflexes start to deteriorate in our 30s as well as proprioception, key elements in throwing.  We can overcome that deterioration with constant muscle memory training.  Drills for the throws and explosive movement will allow for the continued muscle memory effect without being too physically taxing.  Then good old fashioned thowing year round so that a neurologic retraining process does not have to occur in the spring.  Then the other realities of loss of muscle mass and joint problems.  Real but again can be stalled or even overcome.   Older literature from the Soviet sports writing talked about yearly reps vs tonnage with weightlifters and the conclusion was that reps were more important in perfecting neurologic learning and relearning.   Hope that babbling helped.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/04/04 at 10:36am

Mike,

  Andy Bloom put me onto the 1-legs a couple of seasons back. The way I understood it the unweighted leg stays back because that mimics the use of the hip in the throw (it is coming forward and around the blocking leg, not into it). Doing them with the unweighted leg forward would be a bit more like the delivery when you finish closed (speaking theoretically of course since that has NEVER happened to me).

  I really came to like them because you use so much LESS weight. It's one thing to load up 400-500 and grind out back squats when you are younger. However, as I get older I spend more and more time trying to find ways to get the same training effects with less load in an effort to save what is left of these aging joints.

  The bands are great too. You can put 225 (or less even) on the bar and drive up as explosively as you can without leaving the ground. I still mix those with jump squats at the same weight but I can do a lot more of that explosive stuff if most of the reps don't involve landing after launching myself and a loaded barbell several inches off the ground. Some things don't adapt well to the bands (split jump squats for instance) but you'd be amazed what you can do with those things. Try good mornings with bands, great assistance exercise for WOB (fat lot of good it does me at 5'11" though).

Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coach Mac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/04 at 5:31am
Mike...I APPLAUD    your efforts to seek out
authorities and improve your abilities ( Ryan Vierra
and the DAWG )

A couple of thoughts....I have never felt that we want
to spend MORE time on the ground (i.e. pulling
sleds..parachutes ect.) It is all about reversibility
and overcoming the rate of gravity ( 9 m per second)
and this is where most trainers are missing the boat
!

Bi-lateral work (on foam) is even harder...we have a
freshman that just did 55-lb dumb bells...Dave
Brown are ya listening       this is a hell of a
challenge on an elevated (on foam) 1-legged squat.

The percentage of your max...the range of motion
(with those precents) and HOW you apply them are
VERY important as well !!!

I like the contrast training (lifting followed bye a plyo
exercise...I would caution the in-expwerianced on
this one however... it is cutting edge for someone
who can handle shear forces that are about 250-
300% of there 1-rep squat    

Too the old farts out there...flexibility is the first sign
of aging (late 20's)...the stretch reflex's are next (its
kind of like a baseball glove...the leather starts
getting older and loses its ELASTICITY) .... so this is
what happens in a nutshell !

Good stuff ...!
Have a GREAT Day !
Rob " Coach Mac " Mac Kay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McBain1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/04 at 5:21am
This was a very interesting thread. Perhaps all of you can give me a little more information though. I have been searching for an easy to understand routine for the gym...what lifts, what days (example - day one: chest and back, excersizes: bench, pulls). Can anyone give me a sample weight room break-down for the off-season. I am looking for something that will work for three days in the weight room (that is all my new baby and very tired and angry wife will allow) and a four day routine (for when the baby starts sleeping more and the wife is less angry).
N�l m� ag duine le daoine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/04 at 11:58am
OK- Did the Guru workout - all singles/doubles of snatches,hipulls,push press, speed deads - all with a set of box jumps immediately after- THEN you go put on this resistance pulley thing and bound and skip 'till you vomit - THEN we did full squats on a balance board 'till you fall over. THEN do core - Russian twists and medicine ball wall slams. I believe this will make me better or kill me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/04 at 1:10pm
or at least give the great one a run for his money@ MWC 2005 in the 45-49 class!
JUST BRING IT /

SPEED KILLS..BUT STRENGTH PUNISHES
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/04 at 1:31pm

Hollywood let's me carry his fork 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/04 at 1:37pm
Carlos - bands and chains on Thursday....oh boy......AFTER one leg squats...THEN IT'S SLED TIME!!! No wonder they call him Mad dog...it's makin' me mad he's workin' me like a dawg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/04 at 2:39pm
Hollywood let you carry his fork-man I am not worthy!!!!!Hollywood who has not been heard from in montrhs on the New England Circuit is a threat anytime he puts on akilt!!!!
JUST BRING IT /

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 4:25am

Mike,

  I hear you brother. This off-season I decided to try an experiment and train Westside style with a powerlifter here on base. Bands, chains, sled dragging, and an incredible volume of assistance work. It's been brutal. We'll see how it pans out once the season rolls around.

Anecdotally, Dan DeWelt always told me that older throwers need to do more strength training than younger throwers.

Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Pinkerton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 8:00am
Try to be sure that you are getting your volume from your sets more than you are from your reps.  10 sets of 2 or 3 is good volume for the highland games but 2 sets of fifteen is not.  Even though you are working up to a total (roughly) of 30 reps you are training two totally different aspects of your muscular system.  The workouts until you puke may be hard, I know I hate them, but rarely do you see a guy throw until he pukes.  Drink until he pukes...now that's another question

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 8:10am

The guy I'm training with is what you might call an orthodox Westsider - 12 sets of 2, 9 sets of 3, progressive sets of five looking for a five rep PR, stuff like that.

Not sure how well this will carry over to throwing but it was time for a change. I've been dedicated to push-pull-squat workouts for several years now and feel like I was losing a lot of ancillary strength. I think the PL thing will be a nice change of pace. My hope is that doing it in Westside style will save what little speed I have. We'll know when the Sacramento Valley Games come around.

Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 8:21am
Carlos, I used a lot of Louie and still do, that is how I came up with the WOB, 10 throws in 10 min.  Good stuff, I don't do it all Louie, but incorporate at different times.  Good in season stuff like doing the triples benching getting some work and lighter on the joints.  But not the heavy partials and lock outs and overload, it will kill your joints and when you start throwing you will be shot.  Or want to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 8:22am
Tim- LOL- seems we're on track- I did about 15 singles/doubles of the various olympic exercises THEN moved to puking.Made the mistake of telling him I wanted to get in REAL good shape this year   Feeling better about myself after this morning ...did the one legged squats MUCH better - Carlos, off foot back is better - only balancing w/ one finger - took 30 minutes and did 5 X 5 one legs DEEP, 5 x 5 speed deads( they do these at UT...like a regular dead but lots lighter w/ a big hip pop and shrug at the top..up and down) and 11 count 'em 11 double step sprints up a long stairway AND DIDN'T PUKE - and pull ups for Miles.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 9:39am
Thanks for the tip Myles. Right now my plan is to go full Louie through February. Then I'll stay with the two dynamic days and drop the max effort days (those will become throwing days). My first comp isn't till the end of April so that gives me two months to transition.
Cheers,

Carlos



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 10:54am

How many pull ups does an all american do? 

Did you do that workout in less than an hour?

Are you doing the active rest day and what are you doing for it.  You think we could train and do an active rest day and then train again? 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M-BAAB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 11:36am
I wish I was an All- American pullup guy like you- are they allowing your bathroom records to stand?  Totally strict maybe 10.Let the guys in on how many you can do w/ how big of a dumbell strapped on   ......... Did it in 30 minutes......... Active rest is usually 20 minutes or so on a stationary bike followed by arms (just like my BIG ARM buddy in Alabama)and a stretch and hot bath/sauna - helps. THEN do the lay down day... skipping lay down day? I would guess it would depend on how hard you're working....balls out as you are - I suggest NO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Pinkerton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 1:09pm

Do any of you guys do a 'power cheat curl'.  I don't even know if that is exactly what it is called but it's like a combonation of a clean and a curl. You curl the bar from the ground to your shoulders in a kind of clean motion.

I think Coach Mac has mentioned it before.  I was wondering because I would think that this is a very good sport specific execise to do for the caber.  It takes a back seat to throwing the caber itself but, again, it's cold here so this is all I've got.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/14/04 at 2:30pm

Love big power cheat curls, no I am not benching, I am curling.  

What do you mean not an all american, once an all american always one.  10 reps on the pull up is very solid, I am impressed.  What is is like to be that kind of athlete I wonder?  You must sit back and enjoy it sometimes.  One of the first things I say when I am talking about you, my buddy the All American. 

I was thinking train day, active rest, train day, active rest, train day, active rest and then full rest.  Just cut out two of the full rest days.  Or is that just 6 on and one off?  Hey, I am trying to come back from the edge a little

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/15/04 at 4:22am
The heavy cheat curl (some call it the reverse grip power clean) is a favorite of discus tossers. Legend has it that Al Oerter used to do sets of 10 with 315. I seem to recall East Coast Dave working these pretty hard a couple of years back. Maybe he could chime in on his results (hard to argue with his results in caber of late).
Cheers,

Carlos



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