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Shot Put Strength Standards by Don Babbitt

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    Posted: 10/12/12 at 4:34pm
Don Babbitt is Reese Hoffa's coach.  In the presentation he outlines what he (and most others) consider the key lifts for throwers, and strength standards for elite shot putters, including many specific examples.

There is also an extensive discussion regarding strength and explosiveness standards for Javelin throwers.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/12 at 4:47pm

Adam Nelson with a 700lb squat?  .. damn

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/12 at 5:14pm
On the other hand, note John Godina's squat at just 565 lbs, or Reese Hoffa's, which is even lower despite being shorter.  In some ways, I think the standardized liftng numbers as a percentage of one's bodyweight is the most interesting slide, or at least the most useful (for the ratios involved anyway).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/12 at 5:23pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BKetch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/12 at 6:04pm
Thanks for posting those. I am a "bit" of a throwing nerd therefore this a some cookies made for a well spent Friday evening:)
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/12 at 6:58am
A few things about the numbers in the presentation above:

While Babbitt would certainly be in a position to know people's numbers, there seem to be a few that are questionable, including Godina's (see below).  I am also not sure why Randy Barnes' shot distance is where it is, as the chart was obviously made well after his WR throw.  Perhaps the lifting numbers correspond with the season in which the throws listed were made. I really do not know. Still an interesting resource in my opinion.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/12 at 10:19am
Being 5'9" I am not liking the percentages of the weights I would have to lift according to that chart! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigd0g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/12 at 10:34am
Excellent share.  Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/12 at 10:44am
Some big time numbers, especially for throwing an event where the implement weighs 16lbs. 

I wonder how strong those guys would be if they trained to throw heavier stuff (22lbs, 28lbs, 56lbs!)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/12 at 11:47am
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Some big time numbers, especially for throwing an event where the implement weighs 16lbs. 

I wonder how strong those guys would be if they trained to throw heavier stuff (22lbs, 28lbs, 56lbs!)?

The stronger guys would probably be exactly the same, as they were obviously already training to be as strong as possible within the context of being elite throwers first and foremost.  Would you not agree that Brad Snyder was big enough and strong enough to excel at the HG with a bit of event-specific practice?!?  A 425 lb Power Clean at 6'4" tall will take you pretty far, especially combined with a 605 lb High Bar Back Squat and a 545 lb Bench.  And he is the average guy on the list in terms of shot put distance.



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Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

Being 5'9" I am not liking the percentages of the weights I would have to lift according to that chart! LOL

There is a reason there are virtually no 20m shot putters who are 5'9".  Coincidentially, when I was just starting out I trained with the guy who is generally acknowledged to have later thrown the farthest distance for his height - 20.83m (68'4") at 5'9.5" and 237 pounds (so I was told).  He was a rotational thrower, of course. Lots of room for him in the ring. He was a VERY strong guy - 500 lb squats for set of 10 reps (before Christmas) about a year and a half before his big throw.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/12 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Pingleton Pingleton wrote:

Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:

Some big time numbers, especially for throwing an event where the implement weighs 16lbs. 

I wonder how strong those guys would be if they trained to throw heavier stuff (22lbs, 28lbs, 56lbs!)?

The stronger guys would probably be exactly the same, as they were obviously already training to be as strong as possible within the context of being elite throwers first and foremost.  Would you not agree that Brad Snyder was big enough and strong enough to excel at the HG with a bit of event-specific practice?!?  A 425 lb Power Clean at 6'4" tall will take you pretty far, especially combined with a 605 lb High Bar Back Squat and a 545 lb Bench.  And he is the average guy on the list in terms of shot put distance.




Of course I would agree, I just like to make note that we are not track and field (ie: we use MUCH heavier implements) and we have different requirements whenever I can.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agm_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/12 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Pingleton Pingleton wrote:



Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

Being 5'9" I am not liking the percentages of the weights I would have to lift according to that chart! LOL


There is a reason there are virtually no 20m shot putters who are 5'9".  Coincidentially, when I was just starting out I trained with the guy who is generally acknowledged to have later thrown the farthest distance for his height - 20.83m (68'4") at 5'9.5" and 237 pounds (so I was told).  He was a rotational thrower, of course. Lots of room for him in the ring. He was a VERY strong guy - 500 lb squats for set of 10 reps (before Christmas) about a year and a half before his big throw.


I don't know his best distance in the shot put ring, but Hamish Davidson at 5' 9" hit right around 60' off grass. He also held the world records in both weights for distance, at 43' 7" and 88' 10.5". Of course, he was stupid strong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/12 at 11:56am
I cannot readily find Hamish's PR in the Shot Put, but he won the Scottish T&F Championships in 1978 (at or near his peak as a Shotputter, and the same year he threw 88'10.5" in the LWFD) with a throw of 17.44m (57'2.5") and in 1975 with a throw of 16.15m (53'0").


Also he was clearly extremely strong (and weighed about 300 lbs...).  From an interview with Geoff Capes:

SO: Who were the major competitors for you in the Highland Games circuit and what made them so competitive?

GC: Bill Anderson, Grant Anderson, Hamish Davidson...all were great athletes who compete year after year and were experts in their own right, in fact, Hamish was very strong with a standing neck press of 450 lbs. So with skill he was very competitive...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/12 at 4:16pm
One last thing: Capes describes Hamish as having done "a standing neck press of 450 lbs."  This is a rather jumbled/ambigous description, but I am sure he meant either Push Jerk Behind the Neck or Jerk Behind the Neck, as performed by Hamish on the video "The Heavies".  Part 2 of this series is no longer available online (to Canadians anyway), so I cannot check to confirm what style he preferred.  But it certainly was not a strict press of any kind. Obviously a very, very strong man though. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/12 at 9:07am
The recent Oldfield thread made me think of this personal email from Rob Suelflohn (Oldfield's training partner during the 1980's) to me from early 2008. I thought some of you might be interested in it, and that this would be the most appropriate place for it.

hi Peter.,
 
first let me say that Brian was the most explosive athlete I have ever seen, so what worked for him is not a measure for a normal person, because he was NOT normal.....
He used to come into the weight room and yell at everyone saying ya don't have to be so strong......it only weighs 16lbs!!!  a guy would put up 550 on the bench and he would laugh because it didn't matter to him.....and he knew it wouldn't make the guy a better thrower...I NEVER SAW HIM DO LARGE NUMBERS.......I saw lots of throwers lift very heavy weights saw 750 sq, 550 bench 400 clean all the time from lots of different throwers ,but never saw Brian do anything that heavy ever....when he did lift heavy it was very very sloppy , lifting...bouncing and literally throwing the weights not just lifting them...saw a 450 bench for a triple bounced each rep...saw a 550 squat that was maybe parallel if we were really in a good mood....kinda hopped with the weights but didn't leave the ground, and he did them fast not resetting after each rep , just bang bang bang...think he did 5 or 6....saw him do 375 push jerk...not at all like an olympic version but more of a shot put really, actually surprised the bar didn't leave his hands.
 
Brian had something else that nobody else had....his muscles were very sinewy , ripped and shredded , not like a body builder but like a lumberjack....I never see this kind of muscle in anyone except very strong people that work with their body , such as lumberjacks, and farmers, I believe he could have had a very big squat if he wanted it, he was just put together in such a way that there was no ceiling ...but he only lifted in such a way so as to be going all out all the time for speed and throwing motion.
another interesting thing is this...one day he came out to throw , we were all throwing already and he grabs my shot and walks into the ring , no warm up, no stretching , no nothing, and he still is wearing his flip flops!!!! he goes thru the ring at top speed and throws the thing 69 feet!!! in flip flops....and as he did this throw you could see his weight transfer all the way thru the cement and his feet were gripping the cement....stuff like this you don't see in throwing shoes ...the feet were his primary weapon , they had their balance all the way into the earth...really amazing to see...
 
hope this helps, let me know if you have any thoughts
Rob


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CHAD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/12 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Pingleton Pingleton wrote:

One last thing: Capes describes Hamish as having done "a standing neck press of 450 lbs."  This is a rather jumbled/ambigous description, but I am sure he meant either Push Jerk Behind the Neck or Jerk Behind the Neck, as performed by Hamish on the video "The Heavies".  Part 2 of this series is no longer available online (to Canadians anyway), so I cannot check to confirm what style he preferred.  But it certainly was not a strict press of any kind. Obviously a very, very strong man though. 


http://highlandgames.net/videos/cawdor.mpg
...Josh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beau Fay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/12 at 7:40pm
Hamish told me this summer that his PR in the behind the neck jerk was 225kg.  Given the source, it may or may not be true Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/12 at 10:21am
Josh, 

Thank you, I forgot that was there.  I was pretty sure Hamish did a split BN Jerk, as I remembered being impressed with his form when I first saw it.

I found this thread from Ironmind, which I might as well throw into the mix.  Hamish's Jerk Behind the Neck is discussed, and it features comments by two prominent members of this board.  It is also a good reminder about the importance of understanding exactly what one is talking about before getting into any sort of debate.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pingleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/12 at 10:27am
Strength Ratios for 20m Shotputters by Bodyweight:


Bodyweight

Bench Press

Back Squat

Clean

Snatch

Push Jerk







225

395

475

360

250

350


0.83

1.00

0.76

0.52

0.74







250

425

500

375

265

375


0.85

1.00

0.75

0.53

0.75







275

440

525

385

275

400


0.84

1.00

0.74

0.53

0.76







300

465

555

390

285

420


0.84

1.00

0.70

0.51

0.76



So, rounding these ratios off, and taking them off the Back Squat result, you come up with something like:


Back Squat = 1.00, Bench Press = 0.85, Clean = 0.75, Snatch = 0.53, Push Jerk = 0.75


Weights are rounded to nearest 5 pounds and percentages to nearest percent.


Compared to most non-elites, the Olympic lift variations are likley going to be very high relative to the Squat and in some cases the Bench Press.  


On average, the Back Squat is probably going to be High Bar version to about 1-2" below parallel with a belt but no wraps.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote big MAC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1/01/13 at 5:16pm
Too bad I couldn't throw rotational to save myself, had all the strength requirements down easy...but not the will to go out and do it. Potential is a French word that means you haven't done anything.

The Backley interview was excellent, read to the end.
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