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Is Weightlifting strength training? |
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Tim Pinkerton
Senior Member Joined: 8/29/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 713 |
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Posted: 4/25/12 at 6:34am |
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The link is to any article on Riptoe's site. He asks if we are neglecting strength. What are you thoughts? http://startingstrength.com/articles/weightlifting_strength_rippetoe.pdf
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celtuckian
Senior Member Joined: 5/16/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 309 |
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Very interesting article. He makes some very good points with regard to base strength levels and how they carry over to the power movements.
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Brian Ely
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Srokus
Postaholic Almost as strong as the top women +75kg Joined: 9/03/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1254 |
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I read this article earlier in the week and have read numerous articles from rippetoe on weightlifting. While I can see his point and some of them are valid, he obviously has a vandetta against USA Weightlifting so his views need to be taken with a grain of salt. As for the part on the OTC and their programming I asked Glenn about this and that program as written is not what they follow. It's like every program we all right up and or look up and follow. It's a guideline and we either stay where it says or push a little more depending on how the lifter feels. As for the fact that we don't get stronger training the lifts, that may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You get strong at anything if you train it enough, in my opinion. You want to get stronger at flipping a caber, sure there are things outside of it you can do that will help but nothing will get you better at it then doing it. Same goes for the lifts. Would a strong back squat and deadlift help, sure but nothing will work quite like doing the lifts themselves.
So this brings Glenn to where his training is now. We do the lifts and variations (blocks, hang, pauses, no hook no feet, etc) but we keep reinforcing the technique of the actual lifts and get stronger at the lifts. I am not saying Rip is completely wrong, he is quite smart and knowledgeable in most respects but to say we don't train the olympic lifts to get strong is a little bit of a stretch in my opinion. Sorry for the lengthy post, but this kind of irked me.
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JSiau10
Senior Member Joined: 2/14/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 744 |
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I'm a newb when it comes to lifting, but even I get that by increasing your overall strength-and as a result your speed- in the heavier and slower events it will carry over to the faster and lighter weight events. So the question becomes even if it is not part of the required workout for Olympic lifters, wouldn't they be adding it to their workout anyway, assuming they came to the same conclusion? And not just Olympic Lifters, anyone who understands this carry-over would want to do the same when trying to increase speed/explosiveness. After all, if the deadlift is similar to the starting movement for the Clean and the push Press is similar to the jerk, it makes sense to also train the heavier lifts to boost performance in their lighter counterparts.
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CHAD
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I think the most valuable takeaway from that article is giving oneself a break from the snatch and C&J might be beneficial at various times. Pushing yourself in a different movement might (I say MIGHT, not for sure at all) be beneficial.
He does have a point, though. We aren't becoming better at the world stage. We either need to do what in needed to win, or we don't need to win. Different priorities. Benching to get a better jerk? Sure. But I'm telling you right now, that's gonna hurt the low position of the snatch. |
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...Josh
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Srokus
Postaholic Almost as strong as the top women +75kg Joined: 9/03/08 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1254 |
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The competitor to be feared is not the one who worries about others, but the one who goes on making their business better at all times...
www.thestrengthagenda.com |
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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Not probably, he is the best deadlifter, raw or suited, ever. And here he is just f'n around with 170kg:
I haven't read the article yet. There is obv a point where technique is king, esp in o-lifting. However, I don't think that superfluous strength is ever a bad thing. If you get your clean deadlift up to the point where your max clean feels light off the floor, it certainly can't hurt. Given a limited training schedule, I suppose it's all about priorities. I'm sure there are o-liters who weren't strong enough and it hindered them, just like there are strong ones where technique hinders them. Tom, do you honestly believe that if you woke up tomorrow and your deadlift was at 800/900/1000/whatever, that your clean wouldn't go up instantly? |
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Sean
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I can't think of a single time I've ever thought to myself "I wish I was weaker."
Bigger engine = more horses. I'm not the best technician on this place by any stretch of the imagination, but there are lots of guys who aren't BETTER than me that are sure throwing a lot further. And all of them are way stronger. I doubt it's coincidence.
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glennpendlay
Newbie Joined: 4/27/12 Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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There they go again. I think this is still the correct response... http://glennpendlay.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/some-straw-men-are-pretty-tough/ |
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C. Smith
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Thanks for the link Glenn, and welcome to the board!
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Pingleton
Postaholic Highland Games' virtually straight legs Joined: 11/28/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 2747 |
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I am late to this thread and with Tom and Glenn already commenting, my involvement is probably superflous. However, I just wanted to expand on a couple of points. First, I wanted to say that Glenn's post above is excellent. I think the following passage hits the nail on the head and can also be applied to throwing: ...if a lifter back squats 200% of his best clean and jerk, most lifters and coaches would be wondering why the clean and jerk is not following the squat at a more reasonable distance, what can be done about it, and, if it might pay to take some of the effort currently being expended in pushing the squat and instead put it toward fixing whatever is wrong with the clean and jerk. NONE of this means we don’t care about strength or don’t want to get stronger. In both Olympic Lifting and throwing, if everything else is equal, the stronger person will have a higher level of performance and there will presumably be a direct correlation between "strength" (as defined by, say, one's max squat, deadlift, and bench press) and any performance increases. The problem is, everything else is rarely if ever equal, so differences in technique, speed and explosiveness, "specific strength" (or positional strength if you prefer), and so on can make a huge difference in performance, such that much weaker athletes can outperform stronger ones. This is true to a greater extent in lighter or more technical events, and less so in heavier or less technical events. Again, this is not to say that some minimum level of strength is not essential to achieve a particular level of event performance, or that it is not very beneficial for a lifter or thrower to become stronger, just that there is a lot more to athletic performance than being stronger in a few basic lifts. Edited by Pingleton - 4/29/12 at 3:49am |
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Pingleton
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To be fair to Rip, as I was really just referencing Glenn's post previously, he largely acknowledges most of these basic points, specifically on page 3, paragraph 3 of his article. The problem (if that is the correct way to look at it) is that he ends up using the same "if everything else is equal" condition I do above - he notes that if technique and "neuromuscular efficiency" (i.e. genetic potential for explosiveness) are equal, then a stronger lifter will win. I cannot think of a single lifter or coach who would disagree with that statement as it is written, but unfortunately, that probably oversimplifies things a bit too much.
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glennpendlay
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The problem, IMO, is that the article in question begins and proceeds with the assumption that US weightlifters, particularly the ones at the OTC, do not recognize the value of getting stronger, and do not make a significant attempt to do so. If you accept that assumption, the rest of the article almost makes sense. Unfortunately, the assumption is incorrect, and not just incorrect by a few degrees, it is a 180 degree absolutely wrong type of incorrect. |
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C. Smith
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I think the disconnect is probably much simpler than people want to see.
(although I know the Rip vs. USA o-lifting war has been waging awhile now). Isn't it possible that it's more of just looking at the US lifters and saying, "You know, they should be stronger."? I don't think that in itself, esp if you are going to meets and seeing people there not being able to stand up with their snatch or cleans, is such a touchy topic. Who could really argue in those instances that some additional strength would be or is a bad thing? I realize then, as stated, you get into a question of efficiency in the lifts, etc... but I'm not arguing that. I'm still of the mindset that superfluous strength is NEVER a bad thing, which is what it seems like both what Rip is saying, and Glenn, you are also saying. It just appears that the disagreement is more on how to get there.
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Pingleton
Postaholic Highland Games' virtually straight legs Joined: 11/28/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 2747 |
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Craig,
While "superfluous" strength may never be bad in and of itself, the question or problem is what did you have to spend in terms of training time and energy and recuperative powers to develop that extra strength and whether that time and energy could have been put to relatively better use. Obviously, if a lifter cannot stand up from a clean or a snatch (!), this clearly indicates they possess insufficient strength, which is the opposite issue and one with a simple solution - more squatting. I think Glenn's original blog post was very clear on this point, but I would love to hear his direct response. |
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C. Smith
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With that line of thinking then, how much technique work is actually being learned or changed in an o-lifter that has already been lifting for a decade? I suspect not much, due to everything being ingrained from thousands of reps.
Therefore it would seem like getting stronger, esp whilst doing lifts that are already being done (clean deads, ohp, etc...) would be the most simple way to improve. Again, I think that just about everyone knows/believes the correlation is there, the road taken is just much different. |
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Pingleton
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Craig,
At the risk of weighing in ahead of someone of Glenn's knowledge and experience, I would respond in the following manner (and I am sure Glenn will correct, clarify, or expand as he feels necessary). When we were talking about strength, we were specifically talking about improving "Limit Strength" in the "Slow Lifts" (like clean deadlifts, front and back squats, overhead press, etc.). I believe that is what you are still referring to above. However, the problem is that strength in a lift like a max C&J or full Snatch is a very complex thing, and leaving pure lifting technique aside (which is likely impossible at max efforts), the very specific adaptations that result from a training program of something like Clean Deads, Squats, Shrugs, and Overhead Presses is very different than the specific adaptations that result from a program consisting of the two competitive lifts, their power variations, and Front and Back Squats, plus perhaps some very limited accessory work (back extensions etc, ab work, possibly push presses, etc). I believe it has been pretty clearly established now that this is more or less the way elite Olympic lifters need to train. The reason is that, specific individual weaknesses aside (which should become increasingly limited as one becomes progressively more experienced and advanced), this is the most effective way to get stronger in the competitive lifts themselves, that is, it has the most "transfer" to performance in the competitive lifts. Even a C&J with 85% of one's max will feel very different than a max single, and the very specific technique, or at least the very specific ways in which one's muscles work to accomplish this will be different to some extent. Something like deadlifts are much less specific, and most have found they don't really need to do them, because you get strong enough in that way performing the first pull of the Clean, and being much stronger does not add a lot if the next link in the chain is not developed to the same extent. Squats are a bit different, because, as you noted, it is possible for some people to clean more than they can stand up with. They obviously do increase one's general strength as well, and in a manner that takes much less time to recover from than heavy deadlifts. The bottom line is that despite the incredibly competitive nature of elite Olympic lifting, literally NO elite lifters from ANY country train in the way that you (or Louie Simmons) are advocating. You have the pure Bulgarian system and it's somewhat less arduous variations, and the Russian and especially the Chinese systems that have a bit more variety, but they all have an enormous focus on the two competitve lifts, their power variations, and squats. I can only assume because it has been determined over the past 40 years or so that something along those lines is the best way to improve one's Olympic lifting performance. Fire away, one and all!
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C. Smith
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I'm not advocating any way of training, just merely suggesting some different things and looking at things from a different perspective.
I think that we (meaning you and I) don't have anything but limited knowledge and hearsay of the way today's elite lifters train. Obv Glenn has more insight with regards to that, and my direct coaching/training knowledge is merely first or second hand from my wife and some US women's coaches, although I'm not sure how much different that is. This is not a personal attack on anyone, but since Glenn is here we'll use a couple of his lifters vs. a couple of the Russian guys. Do you honestly think that his 105 (Donny) or his Supers are anywhere in the realm of strength of Klokov/Akaaev/Chigishev? I suspect if they were there would be video of them doing rock bottom paused front squats with 250kg, huge push presses, etc... But there isn't. There sure is from the Russians though. Therefore a piece of the puzzle, albeit not the only piece, certainly has to be to get up to those or at least higher strength levels. Surely you agree with that? |
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Pingleton
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Absolutely, and I never suggested otherwise! The problem is specically HOW one develops this strength, or rather training in a way that ensures it translates into a higher competitive total. You (or perhaps someone else) brought up the issue of Benni's deadlifting abilities. So the guy does a perfect, smooth, raw deadlift with 1015 pounds and looks good for more. How much do you think he can full clean, or perhaps power clean? I have no idea, but I would bet a lot it is nowhere close to what the top few Superheavy Oly lifters could do, even in absolute terms and certainly not as a percentage of his deadlift. Same with jerking. A while back a few guys in the Oly lifting community were wondering if any of the top powerlifters or Strongman could even support the weight of a top-class jerk in that position, much less jerk it from a rack. I do not know the answer to that, but the question is illustrative of the significance of specificity in training. Or take Shane Hamman, who despite being one of the very best squatters ever, and dedicating several years to serious Olympic lifting training, ended up placing 7th in the Olympics. This was obviously a very impressive accomplishment, but on your view, one might have expected him to do even better given his superior strength in a very relevant lift. I suspect the simplier answer to the woes of USAW is simply (Shane Hamman aside), that they do not get the best athletes the USA has to offer and the athletes they do have are generally not supported in the way some European athletes are (and especially were). At the top level, genetics are SO important. This is an old observation, but I supect it has a lot of merit.
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C. Smith
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I have no idea how much Benni could full clean.
What I do know is how much Koklyaev totals in weightlifting with a 900+ deadlift. So tell me again how it's relevant to take one huge deadlifter with no oly background to use as a comparison, when there is a perfectly good huge deadlifter with an oly background that has a weightlifting total higher than any American EVER? I also know what Klokov totals with his 250kg pause rock bottom front squats, and 500+lbs push presses, etc.... I'm not pulling these strength levels out of no where. (See also Rezazadeh, Chemerkin, Dimas, etc, etc, etc....) If you think top strong men can't support big weight overhead, then I don't know what to tell you. Powerlifters are completely nonathletic and don't even have to be particularly strong, so I'm not sure why they would even be brought up. Obviously the talent pool is the main problem in the US, I don't think anyone would argue that. |
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C. Smith
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And re: Shane Hamman
One could argue that his 7th in the olympics, which as you stated is very impressive accomplishment, was a result of him being so damn strong. He was in his 30's in the Olympics, which is ancient in o-lifting, and his biggest and best squat was many, many years before. But don't you think the fact that he had such superfluous strength going into olympic lifting, along with his athleticism, was large a factor in his success? Obviously, I think that it was. |
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Sean
Postaholic 9th Best in the World - 2010 Joined: 12/05/06 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3759 |
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Hamman, to hear the campfire talk, also had other issues that prevented him from going bigger. But he started the olifts hugely late in life and it was only his tremendous strength and athleticism that allowed him to lift what he did anyway. Most of the top level olifters would be at his level of skill by 16 or 17 years of age.
At the top levels of ANYTHING, the technique differential doesn't add up to nearly the gap the strength does.
The rubber hits the road the strongest, most explosive guy wins.
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glennpendlay
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I think the original point of contention is being lost a bit here. The article in question insinuated that weightlifters do not value maximal strength or direct enough effort toward increasing strength.
That, IMO, is incorrect. We are in a sport where success is measured by how heavy a damn bar you can lift over your head, of course we know that you gotta be strong to do this, and that usually the stronger guy is gonna win! hell, weightlifters are probably more obsessed with who squats the most than powerlifters are! The article, IMO, sets up the strawman situation of "US weightlifters arent strong and dont care about getting strong so therefore are getting beat by strong guys from other countries" and proposes the solution as "hey, lets all decide to get strong and see what happens". If only it were that simple and easy. Now if we can move beyond the silly notion that we have not considered actually trying to get strong yet, then a productive conversation can be had... about the best way to get strong and work this into the training that a competitor has to do on the competition exercises. Actually OL is pretty damn similar to throwing in this respect, we both have to do similar basic strength exercises to get strong, and we both have competitive events that we have to practice. In weightlifting the methods run the gamut, from the huge variety of exercises of the Russians to simply front squatting to max every 10 minutes all day long like the Bulgarians. I have tried it all pretty much, as an athlete and coach. Even tried to adapt westside to OL. What we currently do is squat 3-4 times a week, do some sort of overhead strength exercise 3 times a week (push presses more than anything else) and pull on bars about 9 times a week. It is obvious that US lifters are not the best in the world, and that there are guys out there stronger than us, but I assure you it is not because we do not know the value of strength or work hard to achieve it. |
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vonguinness
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best thread ever.
Glenn, Hoping to meet you in Brooklyn in June. carry on. |
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jammin on the one.
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glennpendlay
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maybe I am missing something... i do not have any plans to be in Brooklyn that I know of?
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vonguinness
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link I guess you just send some of your crew out? |
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jammin on the one.
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Pingleton
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Glenn, I don't think any of us commenting on this thread missed the point of the article, we just moved past it directly to your second point, i.e. given that Olympic lifters obviously need to be strong and are clearly interested in increasing their strength, what is the best WAY for them to get stronger in a way that transfers to increases in the two competitive lifts? Furthermore, can an Olympic lifter really be TOO strong in lifts like deadlifts, squats, or overhead presses relative to their performance in the competitive lifts? Finally, what are the implications of developing basic strength levels well beyond what is generally considered necessary to achieve a certain snatch or C&J? Your post above was helpful, but I am curious how you would answer these specific questions. I believe you have given your opinion about the first question in the basic training outline included above. The only question would be what the rough breakdown of "pulling on bars" is in terms of the full lifts, power variations, lifting off boxes, and pulls or deadlifts. And how often do you have your lifters perform back squats as opposed to front squats (and maybe why)? Many thanks. Peter
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glennpendlay
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No, I am not involved in the CalStrength seminars. I don't know who will be doing that as far as the demo work, although I believe Dave Spitz will be teaching it. I do Pendlay seminars, as well as teach the USAW certifications. |
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glennpendlay
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C. Smith
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Solid and reasonable answers.
Do you feel that 15+ sessions per week is the optimal way to get strong for all your athletes (regardless of their size, experience, training age, etc...)? I've strongly disagreed with this before so I won't really get into that, but luckily for me I only have to worry about coaching myself and getting myself strong. |
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