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meat View Drop Down
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    Posted: 8/25/11 at 6:30am

Since some of you still want to take some shots at the master/pro debate...step up!

Tell me what rule states they can't

What are your recomendations for considering a master legit to throw pro

Tell me how many games a master has do as a pro before they are considered legit

Should we not allow anyone over 40 to compete in the pro division

 

I thought this was put to bed but it seems some people on other topics still wanna take shots....here you go! Light'em up!
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I offered a proposed resolution to your specific case, but you didn't respond. 

No rule states that ANYONE can't throw pro on any given day.  By that logic, we could just have any other athlete on the field throw in the pro class that day and have the scores count.  That seems a bit ridiculous to me. 

I think we all are well aware on what it takes to "turn pro" in this sport, throwing far.  Being over 40 should really have no bearing at all on whether you can throw Pro or not.  Some of the examples you've used (Gene, Gerard) were Pros before they were masters.  Maybe that should be the deciding factor?

You are also goal post shifting pretty bad here.

Any master, or any amateur for that matter, can throw in whatever class they want and can accept money as far as I'm concerned.  THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND.  The issue is whether adding those individuals (who are not Pros) to the class for the day, would make your scores count toward the Celtic rankings. 

I think it's a pretty clear no, but I'm certainly willing to listen to other Pros opinions on it. 
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Curious:

Are the rules for Celtic Classic documented?.

I would imagine they state some minimum parameters that a game must have for the scores to count toward Celtic.

1. Some minimum amount of prize money. (I have seen $1500)
2. Some minimum amount of throwers in the division.

Anything else? Does the competition have to be held at a traditional festival?  (No ren fests, or state fairs?)

Does the division have be billed as a "Pro" division? What about the "Elite" division at the Claw, do those scores count? I would hope so.

How about an "Open" or Pro/Am, where there are at least the minimum number of Pros involved? A game format like Stone Mountain had in the past couple years. Would that count?

Also, I am not sure how a vague rule like "all the throwers in the division would have to be Pro" would guarantee a more challenging competition. I have seen some games with Pro divisions that have throwers in it who would have finished middle of the pack in the A's that same day. Those games would be the exception to the Pro class, but I have seen it more than once.

From an AD standpoint, if I wanted to have scores count for Celtic, I would:
1. Offer $1500+ in price money
2. Make sure there are X number of throwers in that division.
3. Let those throwers worry about future "pro/am" status issues.

It may seem ridiculous to fill in a pro group with "others" to have the scores count…but the thrower aiming for Celtic still has to make the throws. They still have to be throws worth counting.

Do we need an list of "active professional highland games athletes"? Only X number from that list would make the game qualify. (NOTE: I am not volunteering to create or maintain such a list.)

I am not asking all this to be a jerk. Just wondering if these things had been discussed.
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Originally posted by KTDupuis KTDupuis wrote:

Curious:

Are the rules for Celtic Classic documented?.


Yes:

Quote Official Rules

  1. It is the responsibility of the athlete or Athletic Director (AD) to submit all results with the proper certified implements in the NASGA database before being considered eligible.
  2. Results must come from games that provide all the festivities of a Scottish Highland Games. The Games must provide at least $1,500 towards the professional competition. This money can be used for travel, hotel, food & drinks, or however the Athletic Director (AD) chooses to use the money, as long as there is at least $1,500 total. No 'backyard' games will be accepted.
  3. There must be at least four (4) professional athletes competing to be considered eligible.
  4. The implements must meet the weight/length requirements to be considered eligible. Note: It is good practice to consult the Athletic Director (AD) to see if they would be willing to assist you in making sure that the weight and length of the implements will be accurate prior to competing.
  5. Eligible time frame: August 1st to August 1st.
  6. The Braemar Stone must weight at least 22# to be counted.
All of the events will be contested and ranked appropriately based on the current decathlon scoring system. This change was added to give an accurate assessment of total athletic ability and experience. The Celtic Classic contests all of the events, so this system should give appropriate feedback as to the level of competency all of the competitors.



Originally posted by KTDupuis KTDupuis wrote:

Does the division have be billed as a "Pro" division? What about the "Elite" division at the Claw, do those scores count? I would hope so.

How about an "Open" or Pro/Am, where there are at least the minimum number of Pros involved? A game format like Stone Mountain had in the past couple years. Would that count?


As long as there are 4 Pros and $$, it counts.  So a Pro/Am or Elite class with 4 Pros and 6 Ams counts, one with 3 Pros and 7 Ams doesn't. 


Originally posted by KTDupuis KTDupuis wrote:

From an AD standpoint, if I wanted to have scores count for Celtic, I would:
1. Offer $1500+ in price money
2. Make sure there are X number of throwers in that division.
3. Let those throwers worry about future "pro/am" status issues.


At this point, i guess so?  Pretty much what we need to determine. 

Originally posted by KTDupuis KTDupuis wrote:

It may seem ridiculous to fill in a pro group with "others" to have the scores count…


Yes, it is.  That's why there should be 4 Pros.   

It's an honor system that we've all used for the last 10 years.  I wouldn't have expected this to be an issue.   

Originally posted by KTDupuis KTDupuis wrote:

Do we need an list of "active professional highland games athletes"? Only X number from that list would make the game qualify. (NOTE: I am not volunteering to create or maintain such a list.)


Hmmmm....maybe?

Originally posted by KTDupuis KTDupuis wrote:

I am not asking all this to be a jerk. Just wondering if these things had been discussed.


I think your questions are pertinent to this discussion.
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Ok so now I am even more confused. If a master can hop back and forth, what constitutes an amateur?  Is a master some obscure class that is neither?

From all I have known is once you start throwing pro you are a pro and you aren't allowed back as an Amateur for awhile (see my post on Al Myers). Again I can be wrong but I would like to know what SAAA, IGHF, NASGA, Or whatever 'A' has to say rules wise as for as what is a pro, what is an amateur, what is a Master, and what happens when you  go pro for one game, several games etc.
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Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:

Ok so now I am even more confused. If a master can hop back and forth, what constitutes an amateur?  Is a master some obscure class that is neither?

From all I have known is once you start throwing pro you are a pro and you aren't allowed back as an Amateur for awhile (see my post on Al Myers). Again I can be wrong but I would like to know what SAAA, IGHF, NASGA, Or whatever 'A' has to say rules wise as for as what is a pro, what is an amateur, what is a Master, and what happens when you  go pro for one game, several games etc.
masters is by age ....pro is by money.....amtr=no money...don't see a problem with a master throwing pro one day to help out/get some extra scratch-then go back to masters next week as its different criteria(and have done it )...can't throw pro then go back amtr....I support what Leroy did for the hard working athletes at Maine and am glad thats Meat is standing his ground and gets his numbers...couple guys I know are masters hwo do a few pro games.....Now what about games like Altamont that pays masters(above 45)??? and in Canada it is routine that masters get payed...not going to make any one rich-but don't see it as a bad thing..just my 02cents
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As a master, I really don't care if the guys I am throwing with are pros or amateurs or hybrids. I have been fortunate enough to have thrown with may great athletes and look forward to continuing that. All of them have been kind enough to give me tips on how to train and throw better and I greatly appreciate it. And it's nice to throw in a class that I can bring some whisky and not have to ask if anyone is not of age.
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Ok so Masters is a hybrid class that can do either pro or am at any time then?
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Just to be clear, while I took a lighthearted tone when suggesting that I would love to/be willing to fill in as a pro for a comp, I was actually quite serious about it. 

Granted, my numbers aren't what I would consider pro numbers. 

On the other hand, I have had several people suggest I do the pro/master thing like Gene and Gerard and a few others.  I have thought about it some, and at this point, there are a few things I would like to accomplish as an Am, e.g. have my game together and be healthy and compete at Pleasanton.

Again, my numbers would put me at the bottom of a pro class, if i could garner any invites.  But, it would be a blast.  And, if my hobby/side-vocation/obsession could actually pay for itself a little . .  . that would be magnificent.

Nothing but love, Zolk.
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Masters is just an age classification. There are no distinctions made
between "Pro" and "Amateur". As a newly minted "master" thrower myself,
I will take any and all opportunities to win money at games which would
invite me to throw in the Pro/paid class.

I support Zolk on this. He should not be punished because the games
could only attract 3 "pro" throwers for the day. Scott is a legit thrower,
who has been paid to compete a number of times in his career, and he did
make a pretty good pay day for himself as well.

We do not define Pro by how far they happen to throw the implements,
just whether they are taking money for placement.

Maine games is a legitimate and longstanding games with full festival
backing, though they have only had a pro class for the last few years. It is
NOT a backyard games, and I can certify (as the head judge for the Pro
class) that I called all fouls and all throws were legitimate throws and
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Hey I am just wanting to clarify. If a Master can straddle between both lines then hell I am in!  Not that I would ever make one dime with as crappy as I throw, but if the situation ever arose....
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Brian,

Technically, (I think) since you are also in the lightweight class, you can
straddle all 3 classes
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Originally posted by Hapy Hapy wrote:

Masters is just an age classification. There are no distinctions made
between "Pro" and "Amateur". As a newly minted "master" thrower myself,


Unless of course we are talking about the south, and a games like Stone Mountain. Pro-Masters throw on one day and Am-Masters the next. Also, many of the games do not allow former (or current) pros in any masters game.

...unless the AD doesn't know the guy is a "pro".

See...not complicated at all.
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Highland Games MUST be a serious sport.

Cuz you guys are taking the fun right out of it

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Originally posted by Hapy Hapy wrote:

Brian,

Technically, (I think) since you are also in the lightweight class, you can
straddle all 3 classes


Um I am 225, not even close nor will I ever be again to that class.
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Craig what kind of numbers do I need to be a 50+ pro master.
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Originally posted by Soul Eater Soul Eater wrote:

Craig what kind of numbers do I need to be a 50+ pro master.


Good question! We need a handicapping system
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I think that the celtic classic rules do a good job of describing the requirements for a game. The obvious gray area is what consititutes a pro athlete, as it cannot simply be money. I agree with all of that.

I think that if the AD has shown that sufficient efforts were made to recruit four pro's (I can certainly show that happened) and that if the pro in question has a long history of being a top competitor, then those factors should be considered. Scotty has thrown on the field at Loon by invite in the past 3 years. To me, that speaks to his right to be in a pro class.

I pay out much more than the requried 1500, we host piper conpetitions, mass bands, and dance competitions all with paid judges for everything but the athletics as I put as much of the money into pro prizes as possible. We also have several hired bands and performers, and regional sheep dog trials. We are considered the largest one day games on the east coast.

So, the only question is the validity of one athlete who has thrown for money in the past, been at loon in the last three years and is a good player.

In this world of highland games where there is no governing body, rules that vary by region and is largely organized by a social media sight the spririt of the rules need to be followed but until there is real governance there needs to be some leeway as long as the spirit of the rules are followed.

Perhaps there needs to be an official call out to PRO athletes on the NASGA board for every pro game that wishes to be counted? It will be up to the AD to select the four they want to have compete, but in the event the four they want are not available then it is up to the AD to give the spots to any PRO's who wish to throw.

 
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This is meaningless without a proper definition of what makes an
athlete a 'pro' and you don't get to go all Potter Stewart here and
say you know it when you see it.

The other option, and by far the simpler, is to let any games
count and disallow the counting of extra attempts and use the
Bradshaw scale for caber scoring. Remember, the reason for the 4
'pro' requirement is to prevent easy caber points when a pro beats
a bunch of lesser athletes with an easy stick and prevent too many
easy extras. With a Bradshaw approach you get crappy caber
points in lesser comps because they use smaller sticks, and you
get big points if you turn a big stick.

One last thing, most athletes (pro or otherwise) throw better
against better competition so there is no real advantage to
throwing against a lesser field other than it lets a solid top pro
(like Zolk) get some scores even though he may be having a hard
time getting to as many top games as he'd prefer.
Cheers,

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Originally posted by Borges Borges wrote:


The other option, and by far the simpler, is to let any games
count and disallow the counting of extra attempts and use the
Bradshaw scale for caber scoring. Remember, the reason for the 4
'pro' requirement is to prevent easy caber points when a pro beats
a bunch of lesser athletes with an easy stick and prevent too many
easy extras. With a Bradshaw approach you get crappy caber
points in lesser comps because they use smaller sticks, and you
get big points if you turn a big stick.



I would still keep the money requirement in there. Since most people are in the agreement that the minimum requirement to be a pro is they get paid.
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Carlos,

Actually, the 4 Pro rule was established at the Portland Games for the ALL American CHampionships.  This was created b/c guys were suspected of using "backyard" games to get qualifying marks and the belief was that if there were more guys present the level of honesty would be higher (light implements, flat fields, etc...)  The caber point issue is just a by-product. 

If look at a guy like K. Smith.  He often floats b/w Masters and Pro.  I know he has thrown in games that only had 4 guys.  If he claimed he was Masters, should the scores not count?  Or is it b/c he was once only a Pro the scores can count?  Or can the throws count as long as the guy claims he is now a pro/masters?  Not sure there is a concrete answer since there is no rule specific to this.   Atleast we can clearly rule out Am's since they can't collect money.
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you know, this brings an interesting question to mind. Is there such a thing as a professional masters class? and if there isn't, why not?
I'm just an idiot, pretending to be smart.
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 Just a thought on this topic. I have been a "filler" at this Games for years. I contacted Leroy early in the year to give up my spot and let a "real Pro" in. When no other Pro stepped in I filled the class out  again.  Maybe the Celtic should designate a few Games and only use numbers achieved there?
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Originally posted by REDRAGE REDRAGE wrote:

 Just a thought on this topic. I have been a "filler" at this Games for years. I contacted Leroy early in the year to give up my spot and let a "real Pro" in. When no other Pro stepped in I filled the class out  again.  Maybe the Celtic should designate a few Games and only use numbers achieved there?

I have told you in the past I welcome you anytime. I think next year I will just make it known that Maine does not count towards the Celtic Classic and not even post the game on NASGA as it seems to have no other value. I push every new athlete here, and I always make sure I post my scores which seems like it was all a waste of time.
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This stuff is too compliacted for me.

 

I go where I'm invited, throw against whoever else is there, and if they offer me money, I take it.

So far, no one has taken any action against me for doing this. If ever I am not invited back it's usually because I did something in the beer tent afterwards that people would rather forget

So, whoever reads this, if I drunkenly hit on your girlfriend, I am genuinely sorry.

 
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Jeff-

All the legal statutes of limitations against you have expired in this region ... you are free to resume your dancing.

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Originally posted by K Rogers K Rogers wrote:

Jeff-

All the legal statutes of limitations against you have expired in this region ... you are free to resume your dancing.

-K



There you have it!
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Yeah, well, when there's some regulation of weight bearing limits on tent poles, maybe.
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As long as the games is legit and the implements make
specs what difference does it really make WHO you throw
against? If you throw it....it should be a mark you can
use. If you throw light implements or at a "backyard"
games (whatever that means)and you go to Celtic...your
cheating ways will rear its ugly head for sure.

I see marks up on the Celtic rankings that are done with
only 2 pro's listed at the games the mark was set. Hmmm.
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Originally posted by hbaileyIII hbaileyIII wrote:

Carlos,


Actually, the 4 Pro rule was established at the Portland Games
for the ALL American CHampionships.  This was created b/c guys
were suspected of using "backyard" games to get qualifying marks
and the belief was that if there were more guys present the level of
honesty would be higher (light implements, flat fields, etc...)  The
caber point issue is just a by-product. 



HB20,

Good point, I clearly remember the event now and the athlete in
question. I have always been against anyone using 'backyard
games' marks for these qualifiers and was pretty disturbed when
this had to be addressed, simple respect for your brethren in the
game should have precluded the activities that led to all these
rules.
Cheers,

Carlos



"Live free or die"
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