WFD Drills?

Two of them.

First turn drills....  Set up like you're at the back of the trig for a two-spin. Wind up and start the spin, but stop without moving  into the second turn. Get the weight moving, and reverse your feet all quick-like. Land with knees bent, 60% of the weight on the back leg, and dump the weight into the ground behind you.

Do this until you can hit that position...power position, with 60% of the weight on the back leg, PERFECTLY balanced, 5x in a row.  OK, when you first start you won't be able to do it. So do your best 10-15x. That's enough for today. Keep at it until you hit that position every time. Do this a LOT at the beginning of the season, if you are doing a two-spin throw.

Single spin throws.

Here are mine....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9AmCgWFNMc

That  video starts with single spins, then I throw some full two-spins. It's  NOT my best practice day ever, but not awful, either.

NOTE that a lot of guys like to do their single spin throws starting with their legs perpendicular to the trig board, rather than parallel like I do in that video.  I mostly throw from parallel, but mix it up. Sometimes I start perpendicular.

D. Haakenson wrote: Here is my two cents on drills: Don't do drills. The problem with doing drills is that it compartmentalizes an action which is necessarily governed by a rhythm that is unachievable in segments. I'm not trying to be controversial or anything, I'm sure there are people who disagree with me, but I think the important thing to focus on here is that rhythm trumps position, and drills teach the body position at the cost of rhythm. If you want evidence of my belief, take a look at the wide variety of footwork and positions that are achieved by the best in our sport. If you have implements, time, and energy. I would take full throws, and if you have more time left over, take a few more throws. Especially if you are just learning the event or are looking to make big gains in the next three months.

I think it would take incredibly longer to try to do learn the throws without drills. Every throw has multiple aspects to it. The cast, the sprint, the power position, etc. Right there is 3 differet drills you can work on. Once you're achieving what you want with each drill, you put them together. First slowly, then faster. Theres your rhythm.

For instance, I'm having lots of trouble getting into the correct power position for the south african open stone. I'm landing correctly, my footwork is good, but my balance is too on my right leg, I'm not separated enough and I'm blowing past my left. There is a drill where you put your right foot (for a right handed thrower) in the position before you begin the spin, then push your left leg around into the power position and into the throw. That drill right there will save you hours and hours of full throws because you can figure out what you should be FEELING to get the correct throws. From there you only have to add one other portion to it.

Drills teach you what the positions should FEEL like. From there you can apply repetition and rhythm so that you know what positions you're looking for. If it were not for drills, I would have no idea what I did differently between a 43' open stone and a 48' open stone. Because of the drills, I know exactly what is off and exactly what I need to correct.

Lance, since I've thrown with you before I know you're right handed. Whether you're throwing with one turn or two, focus on a strong drive with the **LEFT** leg. If you're doing a one turn, when you land, shift your weight forward as the weight is reaching it's low point, then explode up onto the left leg, pushing your left hip back and your right hip forward, lauching the weight up and over the trig. If you're doing two spins, when you and and you begin your sprint to the trig, push off that leg leg hard to sprint forward and push your right around into the 2nd turn. When you land, get that left leg down fast and drive forward and up over it.

The cast and drop drill that Alan mentioned is good. It will teach you how to get into position for your sprint on a full throw (2 turns). You want to drift very little (almost exactly replacing your left foot with your right).

The other drill I do very often is the one turn and I start perpendicular to the trig. This carries over the most to a two turn. It's hard to explain how everything should feel. In the middle of this video is me practicing one turns with a 42lb WFD: http://youtu.be/ek3YEOlJW8c

I'm going to try to make it down to Tucson to train with you guys in early december so I'll show you then as well as any other drills I have.

I got to take it back to basics, line drills with no weight in your hand. When you can complete 8 spins on the line or very close, with good seperation betwen your upper and lower body then add the weight. Go slow and be mindful of your feet and your lower body speed.

 If your footwork and seperation isn't there, to properly catch the weight, and accelerate the weight down the vertical line to the trig, then the great advice found above will avail you nothing. Technique bro get it down you'll be all the wiser later.

ABC's & 123's.

Alan H wrote: If it works for Ryan, that's good enough for me.

I guess what it comes down to is a philosophical difference in approach. I think there is a danger in attempting to replicate the training methodologies of elite athletes. Ryan Vierra, if I'm not mistaken, has made highland throwing his occupation and his vocation. That puts him in a unique boat. If I set about the task of filling 8 hours a day with training, I suppose I would have to start getting creative with drills too (drills that may correlate with success but cannot be proven to cause success). For most of us, I strongly doubt that there is enough time in the day to get enough throwing volume in and then have time left over to do other things.

This might be the coach in me coming out, but if an athlete came to me and said what drills can I do to improve my distance in the LWFD? Without knowing anything about his strength levels, technical savvy, etc. . . I'd ask him how many throws he took per week in the LWFD. If he said less than 140, I'd say don't worry about drills just keep throwing. Practice the technical aspect of the throws within the confines of normal speed and rhythm. If you are concerned about your technique, get someone to watch you, or video tape yourself.

A lot of people use the "it works for ____" kind of argument. But the problem with that line of thinking is that you can find many counter-examples within the elite community.

Great discussion.

Dan I see what you are saying and agree with some of it.  Yes if you have limited throwing time the majority of that time would be best suited to full throws, especially in the beginning.  Another part of that is if I have limited time I might be able to more quickly fix a problem with my throws using drills.

Lets say for example I have an issue with my cast, well I can do full throws and focus on said issue or I can train a cast and drop drill that Ryan has shown in his video.  Difference is in the time it takes to do a full throw, walk out and retrieve the weight and walk back to the trig I could have done a bunch of cast and drop drills. 

I think sometimes using a drill might just be more efficient use of our time.  Not to mention a more focused way to fix a more intricate part of the throw. 

One other thing that I have found some success with is training footwork drills in between sets in the gym.  You might get some weird looks but going though some line drills or open stone spins in the couple of minutes in between sets is a great way to fit them in.

Line drills + 1

start w  3 easy turns w. a 10lb weight in your hands - look at great throwers on video and slooow down and hit positions - POSITIONS = POWER.

Video yourself - it helps you spot errors!

when u can do 5 nice turns staying in form and on a line - move to a 20-25lb weight

continue

when u can 5 turn a 56 and stay on a line - You will throw far!

My goal is to do 5 spin drills w a 28 and throw the last one 60'

I usually won't do a reg 2 turn throw till I can do the 5 turn 60 footer.

Alan H wrote: It does no good to practice bad throws....out of position, primarily. Here is where our paths part ways. I've taught many people how to throw from the ground up. I have resorted to drills with very few, and this only as a prescriptive measure to fix a specific glaring issue. Invariably when athletes learn a new event, they do not hit positions correctly. As they get more volume of full throws under their belts they learn to hit the positions at speed and in rhythm. When I see young or inexperienced throwers who hit great positions and don't throw far, I think two things: 1. That guy does a lot of drills 2. It is going to take a lot of time to deconstruct all that and learn to throw in rhythm Does this mean that all athletes who do drills are doing it wrong? I would never presume to make that argument. Some athletes (and most elite highland throwers would fall into this category) will likely be very successful no matter what they do. This site is great evidence of the vast array of training programs that work for this category of athlete. For the average amateur, however, like the OP, you are generally not going to find success by making your path more complicated. There isn't a magic drill that will fix your technical problems. If you'll indulge me further, I think the best way to go about making big improvements is to get the feeling of throwing far. Throwing light implements is a quick way to develop a consistent sense of rhythm because you will force yourself to apply the rhythm to different speeds. If I was coaching a beginner I would have them start with a 14 pound wfd, and throw it 50/50 with the 28 until they are throwing the 14 over 60 feet. (60 feet being a standard for A amateurs) Then, have them move up to a 21/28. I would want that beginner to feel like an airplane on the runway. Well, I'm not sure I expressed myself as clearly as I had hoped to. I apologize for that, and again, I think this is a good and important discussion and I am very interested in the opinions being presented. When I'm throwing a lot middle of the season, I 'm sure I don't  do 140 throws in any event. I bet I get in 140 throws TOTAL, in all events, but no way in any single event. I throw 2x a week, sometimes 3x for about 2-3 hours each session.

I imagine that you throw substantially more than the average highland thrower. You throw more than I do, and I feel like I throw quite a bit. Although I only practice three events.

line drills all the way, if you can keep the same tension doing 10 spins in a strate line you will throw far even when you mess up.

Alan H wrote: I'm glad you explained that, 'cause it had me going there for a while!

Practice.

New PR. I quoted something without including my own response. Just beat the towel right Alan?

I firmly believe that if you believe in your approach it will be more successful than a different approach that you have less confidence in so obviously that is the way to go for you.

For the sake of furthering the ongoing dialogue on this issue . . .

If you are not sure that your technique in the throwing events is correct, how can you ever be sure that the drills you are working on will be executed correctly? Should someone be working on creating drills for the drills?

D. Haakenson wrote: For the sake of furthering the ongoing dialogue on this issue . . . If you are not sure that your technique in the throwing events is correct, how can you ever be sure that the drills you are working on will be executed correctly? Should someone be working on creating drills for the drills?

I'm working on creating drills for the drills for the drills for the drills.  The hardest part is knowing exactly where to start.

This is a relevant and good point here though,  re: if your drills aren't correct.  I would be willing to bet several suffer from that very dilemma. 

D. Haakenson wrote: I firmly believe that if you believe in your approach it will be more successful than a different approach that you have less confidence in so obviously that is the way to go for you. For the sake of furthering the ongoing dialogue on this issue . . . If you are not sure that your technique in the throwing events is correct, how can you ever be sure that the drills you are working on will be executed correctly? Should someone be working on creating drills for the drills?

I do agree with this. Without the aid of someone there watching you, making sure the drills are correct, they can be flawed as well. An option is to watch a LOT of videos, and videotape yourself. Even then, a throw can look good but not go far because force is being applied at the wrong times.

Kilted Dragon wrote: With the very likely possibility of repeating many things that have already been said, I love drills.  However, drills only work if they are correct.  Drills are meant to help people who are not comfortable with correct positions to become comfortable in those positions.  Also Drills are like working out, find what works for you.  If you Pr from throwing fulls all the time keep throwing fulls.  If you throw best when you do drills do drills.  If you throw better than other people using a technique that nobody else uses you may have just figured out a new technique.  To quote the many infamous rappers DO YOU.

I agree with this as well. If you PR from throwing fulls all the time, don't stop, you're obviously doing something right. In regards to a "technique that nobody else uses", I have a 4 wind hammer. I'm not comfortable with 3 winds. I need the first two winds to get my hips moving and my balance under control, then I notch things up on winds 3 and 4, wheras most guys can get away with 3 winds and big throws.

FWIW, I throw every weekend on either saturday or sunday. You're welcome to drive up to throw with me every now and then. I know it's a far drive, just let me know when you're interested and I'll get you a definite date for throwing.

Personal Record

I've been doing line drills.

I'm new to the sport, and trying to learn from videos and
just being conscientious.

Recently I've been paying attention to these things - do
I land each rotation stable, am I low, and am I centered
back over the right (that's articulated in one of Vierra
videos) and now I'm starting to pay attention to my feet
as a read on my rotation and position.   

My problem is this - watching the videos, I find it hard
to get a read on foot position at the end of each move in
the line drills.

Here's what I'm doing...   To keep it simple, I'm
focusing solely on the right.

First rotation - I land with right foot at 9:00.

Second rotation - I tend to land with right foot at
10:30. When I work to get the right foot at 9:00 I get
some good separation that feels similar to some of the
better throws, but, frankly, I'm new enough that I'm
still overwhelmed by all the movement when doing full
throws and can't really pinpoint small movements while
throwing. Good throws are still just a happy mystery.

Since I only get 3 foot more distance out of a double
rotation than a single rotation, I suspect I'm leaving a
lot on the table in that sprint/rotation movement.

What should I be striving for in regardless to foot
position?