Dana,

First, thank you for the very generous comments.  I am pleased you have found some of my posts helpful or at least interesting. 

However, I would be more comfortable answering a series of specific questions to the degree to which I am able, as opposed to simply responding to your post as it stands.  For the record, although I would consider myself knowledgeable about several areas of training (along with many other individuals on this board), and am generally "well educated", I am not a medical doctor, chiropractor, or physiotherapist, so I am not sure I can be of assistance in all the areas you might have questions.  Perhaps Terry Smith, Dr. Bill Crawford, or others can help with respect to any questions or concerns you have regarding your knees.  Otherwise, I am happy to help in any way I can.

Peter.

First, I think several people on this board could provide some valuable input on this issue.  Off the top of my head, here is an initial attempt at an answer.  Keep in mind that I am a healthy 42, so not all of this is going to be entirely from personal experience.

As an older Masters athlete, you are almost certainly going to require more recovery between heavy workouts than someone who is 25-35, and a lot more than someone who is in college or high school.  Depending on your preferences, schedule, and other physical activities you engage in (like throwing), you will likely find one of the following works well for you.  (1) Work out three times a week, alternating between two distinct workouts.  (2) Work out three times a week, using a distinct workout each day (e.g. Squats etc., Presses, Pulls).  (3) Lifting twice a week (e.g. Monday and Thursday), with a variety of options possible. (4) Working out four times a week on a modified Westside-style split routine using heavy and dynamic days might also be a possibility depending on your recuperation and exactly how such a routine is implemented.  

I have never read anything to suggest that the recommended rest periods between sets should be any different than for a younger athlete, or that one's training cycles should be significantly different, or that a healthy older athlete cannot work out just as intensely, or that one cannot continue to make gains (depending, of course, on your prior training history and performance level).

Certainly, there are many fellows in their 50s who are still very strong, especially on the "slow lifts" like benches and squats etc.  Speed, flexibility, and then explosiveness seem to be the attributes that become diminished first, while limit strength and obviously lifting and throwing technique can be maintained for much longer.  This does not mean that speed and power training should be disregarded by the older athlete.  On the contrary, this type of work might be more important in order to limit the rate of decline in these areas.  "Use it or lose it" seems to become an increasingly important principle as age increases.

Proper warmups and warmdowns also become essential for hard-training older athletes (as opposed to merely beneficial and important for those who are younger).  Along with a "sensible" approach to lifting (absolute use of proper form and a slightly conservative approach to weight selection and volume lifted), proper warmups and warmdowns (including stretching) will really help to avoid injuries, which otherwise become more likely and harder to recover from as the years advance.  In general, great care should be taken to avoid injuries.  Any minor downside associated with not going for that one extra rep or one extra set is negligible compared to not being able to train at all for several weeks, or being forced to work around a nagging injury for an entire season or more.

Training methods such as plyometrics and intense sprinting should be approached very cautiously by the older athlete who has not incorporated this type of training recently.  This is not to say such methods cannot be used, only that one should start easily and progress slowly and carefully.

I am not sure if any of this is of any help.  Let me know more specifically where you would like me to go with this and I will see what I can do.  I would also encourage others, especially other Masters, to add their thoughts on this issue.

Dana,

A couple of observations:

- if I read your post correctly (not sure), you are in fact on a five week cycle with the final week being an off week or perhaps a recovery week.  If that is the case, then I would switch to a four week cycle, with the 4th week being a recovery week.  The weekly volume for such a cycle might look something like 60%, 80%, 100%, 40%, and then repeating the cycle.  Another alternative would be a three week cycle with weekly volumes of 100%, 80%, 40%, repeat.  You should be VERY tired at the end of a 100% week, which includes a volume of lifting that would quickly result in overtraining if continued for a period of a few continuous weeks.  Using this system, the reps used would be fairly similar during a given period, going from fairly high in the fall down to low reps with maximal weights in March or April.

- although the methods noted above are classic and well-established methods of cycling one's workouts, another option that might work for you during the off-season is alternating three week periods of "intensive" workouts (low reps and heavy weights - e.g. sets of 1-4 reps) and "extensive" workouts (moderate reps and weights and perhaps more sets - sets of 4-8 reps).  Ideally, you might still incorporate some weekly cycling of volume when using this method, although I suspect many do not do so to the same degree, instead using the "extensive" weeks as a sort of extended recovery period for the CNS and joints (which it is, depending on how hard you push during that period and the intensity you utilize).

- one thing to keep in mind, however, is that a BRIEF period of overtraining (technically referred to as "overreaching") can be very beneficial, as long as it is quickly followed by a period of easy training and is overcome within a few days, usually with a supercompensation effect.  It sounds like you are taking this at least a bit too far in your current system.

do a search for Coach Mac's views on a heavy week(3 w/out days) followed by speed week(3 w/out days) am at work and don't have the time but remeber it was geared for rest and recuperation

M-BAAB wrote: I know lots of strong/slow/chunky masters

Yeah nice to meet ya.

Reddawg - Well Sh*t.....that sure wasn't how I meant it . Apologies for sounding like a dick who got lucky in the gene pool.

jlmreddog wrote: M-BAAB wrote: I know lots of strong/slow/chunky masters Yeah nice to meet ya.

I've warned you before about doing my job....I have dibs on low-hanging fruit like that.

Mikey I'm not nearly that sensitive, I mean c'mon I talk to Cosner. I think one of these years I will actually start weight training for the games...who knows maybe this year.

Josh he who hesitates is lost.Tell Jnut thanks for the high resolution family pics she sent. The head shots of you look really good.

Myles - any word on where your back is going? Fingers crossed.....

  Jezz Baab, you are the most insane workoutaholic there is. I've read your posts and try to visualize doing them but I throw up half way through the visualization. When I read the work load you take on I feel shame that I can't do that. You are a great inspiration to me tho.

  Thanks for all the great input from all of you and since I am making some major headway I will certainly entertain your replys. I am already feeling like this is going to be a big year for me, so armed with new information, who knows what's gonna happen. Thought I'd use the 'gonna' instead of the 'going' to make it sound more exciting and that I mean what I say.

I eliminated the following movements from routine effective late 07': Good Mornings, Stiff Legs, RDL, Low Squatting and Slow Benching. My goal was/is to maintain joint health in my knees, shoulders, wrist, elbows, ankles and maintain lower back health and explosiveness.  I've also dropped any type of racking or catching of wts, i.e. power cleans front squats etc. I also dropped depth jumping and high bounding.

During this time: pulls with various grips and heights, along with hi-box squats, bottom position zerchres, 1/4 squats up to toes and hex bar jumps have been my base.  I tend to go with the flow and let my body dictate how much I push.  The only point at which I lock in and focus is three weeks out from all games, with an added week for Loon or MWC (if I ever get to another one).  Now the emphasis for me is throw/drill volume off season.  My basic rule is that if I'm to sore or too tired to complete my throw workouts I need to adjust the wts. Example1/4 Sun. 3 second pause squat, to box 8x3, (light)Snatch Grip Hi-pull 4x4 (heavy), bottom postition zercher 5x5 (med/light), Hex Bar Jumps 3x5 (med/light) and single leg leg press throws 5x20/20 (very light), 1/5 scheduled to wind 25 lb hammer 20x10, followed by 20-30 pud release (hammer release) with 30 lb kettlebell. Energy level very low throughout the session a direct result of Sundays workout. I think what zapped me was the 3 second pause squat to box, to a bounce pad. Haven't gone static to ballistic in about 4 weeks.

For me less is more with regard to the wts these days. For three weeks I have lifted only Sundays and throw/drill Monday thru Saturday and will continue this until the season starts. I still have very hi expecations in the training hall- 700 Box (between 1/2 and 1/4 depth), 400 snatch grip hi-pull to shoulders, Bottom position (1/2 squat depth) Zercher and 650 SGDL from stand to low hang and a 700 DL.  

My whole point to this rant is as get older (50 soon) my need for recovery from the wts is far greater, which has directly or indirectly contributed to my increase drill/throw volume, which will result in some long and high throws hopefully next year.     

So old farts get out there and throw much much more and lift much less often. Lastly, I would advise Dana to incorporate yoga and low impact cardio into his weekly routine.

Dana,

Two things:

Again, you need to shorten your cycle by at least one week and include more variation in volume and/or intensity from week to week and possibly cycle to cycle (see my earlier post for details).  You want to make yourself very tired and overworked by the time your recovery week rolls around, but certainly not to the point of having blood pressure issues, insomnia, and anxiety.  This would be excessive in a 28 year old Olympian, and is just silly for a 54 year old Masters athlete.  But you are obviously bouncing back from this clearly overworked state very well, achieving the desired supercompensation effect.

With respect to your final question, the answer would seem to depend on whether or not you are progressing from one supercompensation phase to the next, or are your peaks basically equal (not that you can expect to make significant progress between every cycle)?

Dale,

That kind of workout is excellent for your general health, but negatively affects the goal of increasing power.  This might not be a big deal for you at this time of year, and improved general health and perhaps weight loss might be one of your goals, in which case you should go for it.  But it is definitely not going to help your throwing or lifting, and might detract somewhat from your workouts directed at improving those specific activities. 

Peter, Dana, Mike,

Thanks for the input. I suspected the cardio may impact my gains in the gym. Mike has it right, though, in that I think balance is maybe the biggest part of the picture. Hey, I never met my grandparents, so I guess I'd better be taking care of the things that might keep me around longer, because none of them made it past 40.

On the other hand, I've only been back to the gym seriously for the last 4 years. Otherwise, I'd only done cardio (biking and skiing) and throwing in the previous 15 years since college. My throwing continues to improve, and so does my strength, although I'm kind of pathetic next to many of my peers in strength. I'm thinking I'm in some rather uncharted territory here, balancing strength, athletic ability, conditioning, and aging all at the stame time. So far my only role model in this is Baab, and he's a scary freak with those workouts. It sure would be nice if there was a larger body of results and experiences to draw from.

Scary freak here  Dale - just keep doing lots of variety based on what you like to do. IE: "What's the best exercise machine in the world?" Answer-"The one you'll use".  I've talked to lots of masters (some very senior)  and the common thread was that they continued training because it was fun - whatever the activity. And you can rotate what you do based on the time of year -throw in spring and summer - lift and ski in winter.  I like playing basketball as much as throwing , I like jumpy speed stuff alot more than deads ,etc. I tend to get a new obsession a coupla times a year and wear it out. You're doing great - just listen to that old carcass and know when to switch or back off.