Get your minds out of the gutter!!

In this thread, we will allow free discussion of the following topics. 

1.  Spin vs. Stand

2.  Drug use in the Highland Games

3.  Pro vs. Am debate

Every post made that references one of these three things will either be locked, deleted, or moved to this thread, depending on the current mood of the moderators.

I will also put a link to the threads where these topics have been discussed ad naseum.  If anyone wants to dig up those links or already has them handy feel free to post them and i will organize in the post below this one. 

This thread itself will be lightly moderated, so anything short of a personal attack can stay.  I think i'm the only one who really gets personally attacked on a regular basis anyway.  So if you want to look like a hypocritical douche and call someone out, or make unfounded accusations, then i suppose this is the place to make yourself look like a fool. 

Yes, I expect this to be the longest thread in NASGA history.

Only since you asked Craig.  I certainly was not going to bring the subject up again!

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3604&KW=WOB+%2D+Standing+vs%2E+Spinning - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=360 4&KW=WOB+%2D+Standing+vs%2E+Spinning

http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3753&KW=Spin+vs%2E+Stand - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=375 3&KW=Spin+vs%2E+Stand http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3604&KW=Peter+Ingleton -

As the AD for Maine I will always allow spinning. Sorry standing Army. You standers are awesome, but we love the spinners too.

We cannot afford drug testing, but if we see anyone with a needle sticking out of thier ass, we may ask questions.

A far as pro's are concerned. Who else are we going to give our money too? The only controversy I have regarding PRO vs AM is the double standard for Women. A woman can be pro one week, and an AM the next. A PRO man cannot do that.

Leroy

That just proves it is acceptable for women to go both ways, not so much for the men

Jeff Ingram wrote: Craig Smith. 1.Spins, not just once, but TWO times. 2. KNOWN drug user (has admitted, on the internet ((which as we all know is a record of incontrovertible repute)) to have taken the performance enhancing drug IBUPROFEN, and more rarely AMBIEN... which, while hilarious, is also a PED). 3. Has been (in the past, not is a Has-Been... you know what I mean) an AM AND a PRO. Not at the same time, but STILL. I believe these FACTS call in to question his ability to moderate this conversation OBJECTIVELY.

1.   Hmmmm, you got me there.

2.  I have never admitted to the use of ibuprofin.  I do have additonal recent Ambien tales, maybe i can get Kara to post as she takes notes during these episodes...

3.  Got me again.  Although i was an Am and a Pro in the same year once.

Objectively?  Bwhahahahahahhahahahahah

This thread should set all time records for posts.  I think we should create a whole new board just for these three topics, like the nonsense board, so people can go there and post to their hearts content. 

This always happens this time of year for me.  No more games, no throwing outside, it's dark when I get home, it was 18 degrees when I woke up this morning.....I'm like a cranky bear looking for a cave to hibernate in...except I don't hibernate.  I'm just pissed I can't go throw. 

What games allow spinning in Illinois.

I'm going to learn to spin just so's I can piss people off (it's like a hobby of mine). It will fit in well with my eight year plan to beat Terry. I figure that's about how long it'll take him to start slowing down enough for me to catch up.

A few more threads

Stand vs Spin WOB
http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1616 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=161 6

Leveling the WOB playing field or ...
http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=160 6 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=160 6

Marion Jones
http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5543 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=554 3

Spin, no spin...its a small matter.
http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2875 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=287 5

It is a good sign that people ask thess questions time and again as it is a sign that new blood is constantly coming into this sport.

Since new throwers do not think of,  OR have problems with the search engine (lots of time outs), putting the threads of various topics together is not a bad idea so they can easily read the various opinions, humor, insight, silliness, .....

It goes on the line of FAQ for this sport and is a good idea which perhaps was born out of frustration of our moderator. 

When you get through the bullshit in some of these treads, there is a shit load of knowledge and hisotry of the games buried in them which helps to educate throwers about this sport.

What do you call a fish with no eyes?

A fsh.

mcdonl wrote: The only controversy I have regarding PRO vs AM is the double standard for Women. A woman can be pro one week, and an AM the next. A PRO man cannot do that.

Come on, anyone that's been in the sport more than a day knows that this is just because of the lack of women competitors. If there were as many women throwing as men, they'd be held to the same class standards as men.

If you can dig up a couple hundered more female competitors to fill A, B, and C women's classes around the country I'm sure that would fix the "double standard" thing.

J Payne a Pro?  Now I don't feel so bad after getting monkey-stomped by him in Texas.  Bring it on back to Scarby next year, my bicep-enhanced friend!

Spin vs. stand......oh well.

WOW!

Just because I cashed a check from the claw doesn't mean I'm exactly a pro (if by pro you mean someone who can throw really really well). I know, I know, I may look awesome and menacing when I step out onto the field, but that's mostly just a combination of good lighting, hair gel, and sleevless shirts (a trick I learned from Baab!).

The fact that I got to cash a check from the Claw DOES mean that Wally runs a top knotch competition that should be emulated by other games all across the country. (That should give you a hint on where I stand on the paying of am's issue. I was happy to cash my little prize check, and if that makes me a pro, well, lets just say I dont' think Ryan V is shaking in his boots just yet.)

Duncan:

As for the Scarby rematch-- it's on brother. We almost had it lined up for the Claw in 08, but I guess both of us had to pull out at the last minute. Plus, you've been putting up some good numbers lately. I'm going to have to throw in some extra hair gel, and cut my sleeves extra short to keep up . 

Tanktop!?--

I'm not sure I'm ready for performance enhancers like that just yet. On the other hand, I don't think there are any test that can detect the use of a tanktop in a sample of urine (but I could be wrong).

tank tops have been known to cause a spike in the hormone ILS.

Just sayin

C. Smith wrote: 1.  Spin vs. Stand 2.  Drug use in the Highland Games 3.  Pro vs. Am debate

1 I cant spin so it should be banned.

2 I say if its leagle do what you want.

3 And other than getting paid Pro is just a lable for the guys better than the rest of us.

Good Morning,

I bow to your brilliants Craig Smith. What you have done here is basically setup a black board in the men’s bathroom. You have told everyone that they can write all the bad words they want. Just as long as they write them down “here”. Soon the subject fades and mean while the rest of the board stays  clean. Well done Sir!

Bathroom Blackboard?  Ok:  For a quick deflation of a fun thread call Colewine at 555-5555. 

Back to those spinning circus midgets:  What kind of fork would they use for sheaf?  Three tine, two tine, or salad?

This is not really surprising information as it has been well-established on a practical level for a long time, but it is still interesting to see this confirmed and explained scientifically.

Anabolic Steroids Still Provide A Competitive Edge In Power Lifting Even Years After Doping Has Ended

A team of researchers examined the impact of anabolic steroid use on power lifters years after the athletes had ceased to take the drugs. The researchers found that while physical traces of the drug no longer remained, changes in the shoulder and quadriceps still gave lifters an advantage years later.

Background
The use of anabolic steroids can add more nuclei to the muscle, and enhance muscle fiber size. The researchers examined data in two muscles: the vastus lateralis, found in the quadriceps, and the trapezius, a part of the shoulder-neck muscle. Each muscle is key to power lifting.

Three groups were examined. One group was comprised of seven power lifters who had previously used anabolic steroids for long periods of time but stopped their usage some years ago (PREV). One group was currently power lifting but did not use steroids (P). The third group was power lifting and taking steroids (PAS). The researchers examined muscle fiber distribution, fiber area, subsarcolemmal and internal myonuclei number per fiber, myonuclei expressing androgen receptors, satellite cell numbers per fiber, and proportion of split fibers in each muscle for each individual.

Findings
The researchers found that several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal, and with no or low current strength-training, the muscle fiber area intensity, the number of nuclei per fiber in the quadriceps was still comparable to that of athletes that were currently performing high intensity strength-training. They also discovered that the shoulder-neck fiber areas were comparable to high-intensity trained athletes and the number of nuclei per fiber was even higher than found in the current steroid-using group.

Conclusions
According to the lead researcher, Dr. Eriksson, ”It is possible that the high number of nuclei we found in the muscle might be beneficial for an athlete who continues or resumes strength training because increased myonuclei opens up the possibility of increasing protein synthesis, which can lead to muscle mass.” He added, “Based on the characteristics between doped and non-doped power lifters, we conclude that a period of anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a power lifter in competition, even several years after they stop taking a doping drug.”

Utili-kilts are wrong. Period. It's not a kiilt, it's a skirt with pockets.

See also, camoflauge, leather or black kilts.

WRONG.

[/tangent]

J_Payne wrote: mcdonl wrote: The only controversy I have regarding PRO vs AM is the double standard for Women. A woman can be pro one week, and an AM the next. A PRO man cannot do that. Come on, anyone that's been in the sport more than a day knows that this is just because of the lack of women competitors.

It is my second day, and I disagree. I think it is the lack of pro women games, no women athletes. Not in the North East anyway.

But, maybe I should wait until my third day to argue with anyone.

Leroy

Leroy - 

while i do think there is a lack of women participants overall, i think the bigger issue is the gap in talent (read: #'s) with the participants, which would facilitate the need for a "pro class".  

If the goal is just to pay the women, then hell, pay them without having to even change anything. 

carry on in here....

Jason Payne...I want your hair gel tested...

You are correct about tank tops...while they seem to increase the "rage of the aged," they just make the rest of us look fat...I am not ready for that sort of pressure just yet.

My numbers have been improving because I have been using two hands...just have to be sneaky.

See you next year hoss.

Jeff Ingram wrote: Utili-kilts are wrong. Period. It's not a kiilt, it's a skirt with pockets. See also, camoflauge, leather or black kilts.   WRONG.   [/tangent]

You've clearly never seen Dave Barron in his leather kilt. He's Highlandgamealicious!

Borges wrote: Jeff Ingram wrote: Utili-kilts are wrong. Period. It's not a kiilt, it's a skirt with pockets. See also, camoflauge, leather or black kilts.   WRONG.   [/tangent] You've clearly never seen Dave Barron in his leather kilt. He's Highlandgamealicious!

I hope it is not assless

McBain1975 wrote: McCracken - how about this curve ball? How about a one tine fork?

You mean a stick?

Okay, so there have been a few more comments about the women throwing pro one day and am the next. Lets take a look at a few of said comments:

1. I think it is the lack of pro women games, not women athletes.

I somewhat agree with this.

2. I think the bigger issue is the gap in talent (read: #'s) with the participants, which would facilitate the need for a "pro class".  

Again, I agree. With more girl throwers, those gaps wouldn't be so big.

It seems to me that all these comments are correct. With a lack of women competitors, in order to even have a women's class you may have two pair two girls together, reguardless of ability levels, just to have enough to run a flight.

If we had more female competitors, we could have more women's pro flights. With more competitors, we could have more games that accomidate to all different ability levels.

So... this may be a chicken or the egg issue. Do we not have enough female pro games, which causes the pro girls to have to throw as am's, or do we not have enough girls to allow us to have so many seperate women's classes. Beats me, but I do like thinking about girls!

I do know that if I were a female pro (so help me god, Duncun, no jokes!) and the only way I could throw at a comp during any given month was to compete as an am, I'd do it too.

WALLY.OLECIK wrote: J_Payne wrote: Just because I cashed a check from the Claw doesn't mean I'm exactly a pro... My thesis exactly.

Preach on brother man!

I doubt it will suceed if it's trying to replace a traditional Highland Games. If the "Worlds Strongest Man" is any indication, I dont welcome the possible influx of more of those that illegally use controlled substances for performance enhancement into the Scottish Games.

EDIT

this post was taken off Hadleys post about what do we think about the new HG-Strongman hybrid organization by Craig, I assume. I guess the above offended Craigs sensitivities about his message board.

Trainerterry wrote: I hope it is not assless

Of course it is. That's how Dave rolls.

Brent Abbott wrote: I doubt it will suceed if it's trying to replace a traditional Highland Games. If the "Worlds Strongest Man" is any indication, I dont welcome the possible influx of more of those that illegally use controlled substances for performance enhancement into the Scottish Games.   EDIT this post was taken off Hadleys post about what do we think about the new HG-Strongman hybrid organization by Craig, I assume. I guess the above offended Craigs sensitivities about his message board.

Well, i am very sensitive.

I failed to see the reason that you even brought up drugs. 

It was already stated in the post above yours, by D.J. (and it's his federation), that they were not trying to "replace tradition highland games".  So to say that, and only that, and then jump into a drug discussion....

Im not gonna have that post turn into a drug post, so i moved it here.  Please debate away in this thread, it has been a few months since it was brought up im sure.

FTR; however, WSM does alot better than we do with regards to money, sponsorship, promotion, etc...

Betz,

Check your email.

COLEWINE wrote: Good Morning, I bow to your brilliants Craig Smith. What you have done here is basically setup a black board in the men’s bathroom. You have told everyone that they can write all the bad words they want. Just as long as they write them down “here”. Soon the subject fades and mean while the rest of the board stays  clean. Well done Sir!

Quick story break...I did that for a health group I had to do at a school for Emotionally Disturbed kids.  "Let's just write it all down now, get it out of the systems".  Worked really well EXCEPT...I forgot to erase the freakin board when I was done and the next group to use the room...the parents support group.  Bad psychologist, I go to box and feel shame.

thegnome wrote: I go to box and feel shame

AWESOME!

Jesus, what did the old man trade for these a$$holes, a used puck bag?

I always wondered why Jeff foiled up before the caber.

R.I.P. Reg Dunlop

I have to say I don't think Anabolics belong in any sport as long as there are on the controlled substance list. However what you do to your body is your choice not place to judge you.

I also don't think eating 50mg of D-bol or taking TST or HGH is going to put me into Pro status. I mean if you throw a 50 stone do you think anabolics are going to put you into the 60's rang?

Now WOB might be another story?

Just my thoughts.

McBain1975 wrote: McCracken - how about this curve ball? How about a one tine fork?

That would make it a shovel? I need somthing to scoop up the stink you put on the feild.

Sean Betz wrote: I know DJ personally.  He is a great guy.  He is drug free.  He is very organized.  I think there are some guys out there that like both sports and wouldn't mind doing a few of these.  I personally like the traditional highland games alot more, but it's probably because I'm a thrower and better suited to them.   I had the privilege of competing at the Highlander Challenge in Scotland last year.   I know there were guys in the Finals, that I competed with, that are saucing.  I don't complain about it, it just makes it sweeter if I finish ahead of them in an event.  Scott Rider was second overall at the Highlander Challenge, and he tested clean at the World Heavy Events Championships, in May. I don't agree with the guilt by association, mentality.

Sean,

I appreciate the kind words.

As Craig stated, from one of my posts, we are in NO way trying to replace any sport, ie: Highland Games, Strongman, etc.

 Just offer another option.

Brent Abbott wrote: DJ, I wasn't implying anything about your character. But I would like to know if your new organization will denounce illegal drug use for performance enhancement or adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy?

Which one do we have in Higland Games?

It's easy to tell if someone's doing steroids.  If they beat me then they are doing steroids.  It can't be anything else.  (This is truly a joke.  Just look at my numbers if there's any question)

(This thread's going to break all records for number of posts...)

C. Smith wrote: Brent Abbott wrote: DJ, I wasn't implying anything about your character. But I would like to know if your new organization will denounce illegal drug use for performance enhancement or adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? Which one do we have in Higland Games?

I'm thinking that before we get all "holier than thou art" and start giving other people a hard time, we should take a look at our own organizations. I'm sure there are more folks in Highland games using than we'd like to admit.

In light of that, if an organization doesn' test at competitions, then it doesn't matter what "attitude" they adopt toward steroids. Weather for or against, without a test, it's all a moot point.

Really, the only difference in a "denouncment of steroid use" policy and a "don't ask don't tell" policy is how it makes you feel. If you get a warm and fuzzy feeling in you heart because the organization officially denounces it, it still isn't going to stop that one guy from chowing down on a pez despenser full of D-bol if he want's too. Thats why without a test, an official stance is pointless.

At this time, we won't be adopting any policy or stance other than anyone that knows me or has been around me knows I don't favor or condone the drug use.

With that said, remember we are a new organization just starting out. We don't have the resources at this time to test or force testing from our state chairs. I honestly don't see it being a big problem now. If things grow like we would like them too, then I am sure it will be a different issue.

From all my years in the amateur strongman circuit, it was not really an issue. It was there, but nothing like compared to the Pro side of things.

J_Payne wrote: C. Smith wrote: Brent Abbott wrote: DJ, I wasn't implying anything about your character. But I would like to know if your new organization will denounce illegal drug use for performance enhancement or adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? Which one do we have in Higland Games? I'm thinking that before we get all "holier than thou art" and start giving other people a hard time, we should take a look at our own organizations. I'm sure there are more folks in Highland games using than we'd like to admit. In light of that, if an organization doesn' test at competitions, then it doesn't matter what "attitude" they adopt toward steroids. Weather for or against, without a test, it's all a moot point. Really, the only difference in a "denouncment of steroid use" policy and a "don't ask don't tell" policy is how it makes you feel. If you get a warm and fuzzy feeling in you heart because the organization officially denounces it, it still isn't going to stop that one guy from chowing down on a pez despenser full of D-bol if he want's too. Thats why without a test, an official stance is pointless.

I love when people actually make sense.  It's very refreshing.

I would like to announce the addition of our 2 newest state chairs.

Mike Landrich of New York and Thom Van Vleck of Missouri.

C. Smith wrote: Brent Abbott wrote: DJ, I wasn't implying anything about your character. But I would like to know if your new organization will denounce illegal drug use for performance enhancement or adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? Which one do we have in Higland Games?

I would have hoped that the self appointed moderator (and someone serving in the law enforcement area?) for this forum would recognize that doing something illegal is well, Illegal as well as unsportsmanlike. This is recognized the world over in almost every sport and being able to beat it or enforce it makes no difference. I would have thought it was evident with games policies on testing (those that can afford it) and other games/organizations to uphold other results that it was obvious that the HG do not allow cheating by law breaking drug users.

It is so obvious that it just falls under some games applications in "Sportsmanslike conduct" requirement. My games applications spells out that breaking laws to use drugs for performance enhancement is inherently unsportsmanlike, can you disagree with that? can anyone? And although many can't enforce testing it in no way endorses illegal activities as some juicers think. I would suggest that all ADs make it obvioius to guys like Craig, who were confused, where they stand.

I would like to call for a new moderator; Craig, your self described only interest in the Highland Games is for only/mostly money, correct? I dont think you have the best interests of the games at heart and I dont believe sweeping certain topics under the rug that you find uncomfortable is in the communities best interest, if that is what this forum is for. This in no way reflects on Kurts great work on this board.

Thats why without a test, an official stance is pointless.

 Exactly ... If theres no testing to prove anyone is "on" then it becomes someones opinion ! And we know the popular saying on "opinions". If the event isn't tested , then why bring it up, it then becomes a moral issue. No one here is the steroid police or moral police. There are a lot of things that are illegal that  some highland or strength athletes might have done (weed,coke,ephedrine,presc. pills etc). Are we going to condemn them also, because it was illegal ? If you want to compete in a drug tested event then show up , throw and take the test. If the event isn't tested and you are assuming that someone might be using and you dont want to compete against them , stay home. Plus unless you see someone actually injecting or swallowing steroids YOU DONT KNOW. 

Jeff Ingram wrote: This thread finally got interesting.

Jeff thought you might like to see it.  It is the Stanely Cup.... some day it will come back to Canada.  We Americans like it too much:)

Brent Abbott wrote: C. Smith wrote: Brent Abbott wrote: DJ, I wasn't implying anything about your character. But I would like to know if your new organization will denounce illegal drug use for performance enhancement or adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? Which one do we have in Higland Games? I would have hoped that the self appointed moderator (and someone serving in the law enforcement area?) for this forum would recognize that doing something illegal is well, Illegal as well as unsportsmanlike. This is recognized the world over in almost every sport and being able to beat it or enforce it makes no difference. I would have thought it was evident with games policies on testing (those that can afford it) and other games/organizations to uphold other results that it was obvious that the HG do not allow cheating by law breaking drug users. It is so obvious that it just falls under some games applications in "Sportsmanslike conduct" requirement. My games applications spells out that breaking laws to use drugs for performance enhancement is inherently unsportsmanlike, can you disagree with that? can anyone? And although many can't enforce testing it in no way endorses illegal activities as some juicers think. I would suggest that all ADs make it obvioius to guys like Craig, who were confused, where they stand.

No one is arguing that steroid use isn't illegal or unsportsmanlike. You have to keep in mind that being "legal" and being "moral" are two completely different issues. Issues that can only be decided by personal OPINION.

I feel it's morally okay to go 35 in a 30 MPH zone. It's illegal as hell, but I don't feel it's morally wrong. That's my opinion. If you feel steroid use should be fought in as many ways as possible (even if you don't have the resources to test for it), I feel that's a fine opinion you are allowed to have. However, perhaps we shouldn't give other guys so much crap if hey just don't care as much about fighting it on all moral fronts as you do.

Personally I feel it's unsportsmanlike to use hammer blades in the hammer (as it's a mechanical, man-made leverage), but I'm not going to rip on anyone who chooses to have a different opinion on the issue.

To make a long post short: we gotta chill out.

(My severe lack of caring on this topic has me seriously questioning why I keep posting on it. I think my desire to stir the shit is overiding my appathy. Oh well, as long as I don't get banned I guess I'm good.)

As I've said before.

Ban the tests ! Allow the spin !

Brent - please read J_Paynes and ken crums posts above this one.

Brent Abbott wrote: I would have hoped that the self appointed moderator

I wasn't self appointed.

Brent Abbott wrote:  (and someone serving in the law enforcement area?) for this forum would recognize that doing something illegal is well, Illegal

Yes, so is speeding, the use of marijuana, taking unprescribed pain pills, public intoxication, etc... all of which i have seen at a highland games.  I'm not here to police my surroundings as a whole, as that would certainly not be possible.  Adults are free to make choices, be it legal or illegal, and often times there is nothing that can be done.  Do we at least agree on that? 

Brent Abbott wrote: Illegal as well as unsportsmanlike.  This is recognized the world over in almost every sport and being able to beat it or enforce it makes no difference. I would have thought it was evident with games policies on testing (those that can afford it) and other games/organizations to uphold other results that it was obvious that the HG do not allow cheating by law breaking drug users.

Here is where we disagree to a certain extent.  Competing in a drug-free sport, whilst using performance enhancing drugs is absolutely unsportsmanlike.  I agree with you there.  Now, that being said, you must conceed that unsportsmanlike conduct is a regular occurance in damn near every sport.  The only way to prevent such conduct is to have some sorts of checks and blances system.  For example, in the NFL/NBA/MLB, etc... there are officials in place that make sure there is no such conduct on the field of play.  Believe it or not, some people will actually to try gain an unfair advantage by holding someone, chop blocking them, corking a bat, etc...  So when we come back to HG, we have to find a way to fight this unsportsmanlike conduct that is the use of performance enhancing substances.  But how?  Oh yes, testing.  That is the ONLY way to even be semi-sure that someone is using drugs.  Of course there are many ways around that, but that is the only option for now.  With that being said, i agree that it's unsportsmanlike and you will agree that some sort of testing is the only way to combat this, yes?

Brent Abbott wrote: It is so obvious that it just falls under some games applications in "Sportsmanslike conduct" requirement. My games applications spells out that breaking laws to use drugs for performance enhancement is inherently unsportsmanlike, can you disagree with that?

Nope, as stated above i agree with you.  I'm not sure how much you've traveled to compete, and that may be common place in the West, but i can count on one hand how many times (different games) i've signed an application with that clause since 1999. 

Brent Abbott wrote: And although many can't enforce testing it in no way endorses illegal activities as some juicers think.

Again, here is where we disagree.  Just because I take the stance that i do, does not mean that i ENDORSE illegal activities.  That line of thinking is preposterous.  I believe you have a teenage daughter, no?  Has she ever had a sip of alcohol under you supervision?  Would that mean that you ENDORSE underage consumption?  Of course not.

Brent Abbott wrote: I would suggest that all ADs make it obvioius to guys like Craig, who were confused, where they stand.

I would actually love to hear many AD's stances on this.  I doubt you're gonna see that though.

Brent Abbott wrote: I would like to call for a new moderator;

You are more than welcome to PM Kurt.

Brent Abbott wrote: Craig, your self described only interest in the Highland Games is for only/mostly money, correct?

Well, obviously if that were my sole motivation, i could certainly find something with a better return on investment than a few dollars and a beat up body.  I enjoy throwing, i enjoy competing, i enjoy helping others in the sport, and i enjoy my friends.  Those that know me would certainly back that for you, if need be.

Brent Abbott wrote: I dont think you have the best interests of the games at heart and I dont believe sweeping certain topics under the rug that you find uncomfortable is in the communities best interest

In no way to find this uncomfortable, nor do i sweep anything under the rug, why would I?  I consolidated these topics here since they are essentially beating a dead horse.  Nothing is going to change with regards to testing for performance enhancing substances.  What you can do is complain about it on a forum, or do something to change it.  I suggest finding a game that would be willing to take on the hassle and possible litigation, give them some money for testing, and send out your invites.  I would even come if the money is right

Until then, complaining on a message board isn't going to change anything, regardless of any personal vendetta you may have against me cause i have spoken honestly on the subject.  What you may find interesting is i'm not the only one who has this opinion, i just happened to be the one who posted on it.  Now i'm you and, ironically, Coach Mac's scapegoat.  Meh....there are worse fates i suppose. 

Now, if i only had the same thoughts as you when I went into my spin on the 56 for distance maybe I'd be throwing a little better.

J_Payne wrote: Now, if i only had the same thoughts as you when I went into my spin on the 56 for distance maybe I'd be throwing a little better.

you have thoughts while throwing.. there lies the problem

i was drunk at pozo steve? you sure i wasnt just really tired

C. Smith wrote: Brent - please read J_Paynes and ken crums posts above this one. Brent Abbott wrote: I would have hoped that the self appointed moderator I wasn't self appointed. Brent Abbott wrote:  (and someone serving in the law enforcement area?) for this forum would recognize that doing something illegal is well, Illegal  Yes, so is speeding, the use of marijuana, taking unprescribed pain pills, public intoxication, etc... all of which i have seen at a highland games.  I'm not here to police my surroundings as a whole, as that would certainly not be possible.  Adults are free to make choices, be it legal or illegal, and often times there is nothing that can be done.  Do we at least agree on that?  Brent Abbott wrote: Illegal as well as unsportsmanlike.  This is recognized the world over in almost every sport and being able to beat it or enforce it makes no difference. I would have thought it was evident with games policies on testing (those that can afford it) and other games/organizations to uphold other results that it was obvious that the HG do not allow cheating by law breaking drug users. Here is where we disagree to a certain extent.  Competing in a drug-free sport, whilst using performance enhancing drugs is absolutely unsportsmanlike.  I agree with you there.  Now, that being said, you must conceed that unsportsmanlike conduct is a regular occurance in damn near every sport.  The only way to prevent such conduct is to have some sorts of checks and blances system.  For example, in the NFL/NBA/MLB, etc... there are officials in place that make sure there is no such conduct on the field of play.  Believe it or not, some people will actually to try gain an unfair advantage by holding someone, chop blocking them, corking a bat, etc...  So when we come back to HG, we have to find a way to fight this unsportsmanlike conduct that is the use of performance enhancing substances.  But how?  Oh yes, testing.  That is the ONLY way to even be semi-sure that someone is using drugs.  Of course there are many ways around that, but that is the only option for now.  With that being said, i agree that it's unsportsmanlike and you will agree that some sort of testing is the only way to combat this, yes? Brent Abbott wrote: It is so obvious that it just falls under some games applications in "Sportsmanslike conduct" requirement. My games applications spells out that breaking laws to use drugs for performance enhancement is inherently unsportsmanlike, can you disagree with that? Nope, as stated above i agree with you.  I'm not sure how much you've traveled to compete, and that may be common place in the West, but i can count on one hand how many times (different games) i've signed an application with that clause since 1999.  Brent Abbott wrote: And although many can't enforce testing it in no way endorses illegal activities as some juicers think. Again, here is where we disagree.  Just because I take the stance that i do, does not mean that i ENDORSE illegal activities.  That line of thinking is preposterous.  I believe you have a teenage daughter, no?  Has she ever had a sip of alcohol under you supervision?  Would that mean that you ENDORSE underage consumption?  Of course not. Brent Abbott wrote: I would suggest that all ADs make it obvioius to guys like Craig, who were confused, where they stand. I would actually love to hear many AD's stances on this.  I doubt you're gonna see that though. Brent Abbott wrote: I would like to call for a new moderator; You are more than welcome to PM Kurt. Brent Abbott wrote: Craig, your self described only interest in the Highland Games is for only/mostly money, correct? Well, obviously if that were my sole motivation, i could certainly find something with a better return on investment than a few dollars and a beat up body.  I enjoy throwing, i enjoy competing, i enjoy helping others in the sport, and i enjoy my friends.  Those that know me would certainly back that for you, if need be. Brent Abbott wrote: I dont think you have the best interests of the games at heart and I dont believe sweeping certain topics under the rug that you find uncomfortable is in the communities best interest In no way to find this uncomfortable, nor do i sweep anything under the rug, why would I?  I consolidated these topics here since they are essentially beating a dead horse.  Nothing is going to change with regards to testing for performance enhancing substances.  What you can do is complain about it on a forum, or do something to change it.  I suggest finding a game that would be willing to take on the hassle and possible litigation, give them some money for testing, and send out your invites.  I would even come if the money is right Until then, complaining on a message board isn't going to change anything, regardless of any personal vendetta you may have against me cause i have spoken honestly on the subject.  What you may find interesting is i'm not the only one who has this opinion, i just happened to be the one who posted on it.  Now i'm you and, ironically, Coach Mac's scapegoat.  Meh....there are worse fates i suppose.

good comments Craig!! Brent met you a few times and think you are barking up the wrong tree..but at least the debate is somewhat civilized

Trainerterry wrote: Jeff Ingram wrote: This thread finally got interesting. Jeff thought you might like to see it.  It is the Stanely Cup.... some day it will come back to Canada.  We Americans like it too much:)

Thanks for thinking of me Terry, but I don't follow or care about the NHL since the Jets were stolen.

Back to drugs, for a moment, lol.

I'm an AD and here's my stance on PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS:

I don't care.

"Your" drug use does not impact me. At all. It's your choice- and when you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action.

So any fallout, legal, moral, whatever is yours to bear.

If you beat me, for a title or a couple hundred bucks prize money, in the long run does that matter? Not to me, though it may to others. Our Games can't afford testing, and I'm sure as hell not going to "guess" who might be on or off. I'm not a cop either, so yeah it may be illegal but that again is "YOUR" choice.

I'm happiest only being judgmental towards myself. I have my own standards and will hold to them. Others are on their own.

Jeff Ingram wrote: [QUOTE=Trainerterry] So any fallout, legal, moral, whatever is yours to bear.

Along with your manboobs and swiftly receding genitalia.

ok.

Since I know that a few people have thought in the past that I have used "help" to get back to competing after several injuries, I wanted I would share my thoughts.

1. Why risk a class D felony?

2. I want a long career where I throw well all the time. Not a quick flame that dies out after I shit out my liver and insides after 2 years.

3. Is it really that important in our high profile sport to own records. That and a few dollars will get you a beer and a shot after the game.

3. I can't eat steriods!!!

4. I don't and never will make enough $$$ to justify it! (this is the case for most of us) Don't get me wrong, I want money. If I had a shot at playing pro ball-PAY ME AND LOAD ME UP!!! The couple of extra bucks I make at these games buys a few more beers and puts a nicer cut of steak on the table.

I feel this is the case for 99% of the people in our sport. If you are the 1% that need the penial injection, you missed out of the top 5 at Worlds this past year.....you might want to think about getting your money back.

That's the beauty of living in this country, we can all express our views, even if someone doesn't agree.  Now, if as a person, you choose to judge individuals based on that, well, that's on you.

The one thing that's sticks out to me about your post Mike is that you pretty much begin every sentence with "I". 

You mean to tell me it's not important to you to accuse people without fact, or try to make people feel exactly what YOU feel?  Well, then you clearly must not have "the best interest of the games at heart". 

/sarcasm

what is everyone's view of Bovine Growth Hormone? Does it make milk tastier?

my brother brought up some KILLER chocolate chip cookies this weekend that really were GREAT with a glass of MILK with HG! Hmmm! Thoughts? These by the way were a major part of a particular DISCUS throwers Soviet training routine.

F F T-M A C??

OMG LOL!

just my .02 thingy

it is sad that we can't truly enforce anything regarding steroids in this sport - however - there are many more sad issues, like seeing games fold under financial strain. There are not nearly as many throwers abroad as would be nice to see and this probab diminishes how large the sport can get.

What I can't figure out is how all the juiced up bodybuilders make so much more money than so many other sports that don't depend on the secret supplement labs. Its almost as if bodybuilders are sexier than Highland Athletes and maybe, well...maybe sex sells...