Here is another Bench exercise that is being monitored by the Tendo Unit ( see it on the floor under the bench) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KmfCQJ9mNo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KmfCQJ9mNo

Coach,

Though not a big fan of Smith machines what about using the smith machine so the athlete can release the weight and not worry about deceleration they create in the standard press....  would allow to accelerate thru full range....  I ahve messed with it a little at the local commercial gym... strange looks especially with the tendo unit

What types of bar speed you looking for or should I look for or does the intent of being explosive suffice in your book.

Terry

Buddy he is using the tendo unit to measure bar speed and the force of the bar.  He likes to use it to measure the eccentric phases of lifts and create a greater eccentric load... it is confusing to me as I use the Tendo to measure squat speed on the concentric and my pulling movements.  He is hoping to come up with greater eccentric numbers to create greater tension then can be achieved concentrically.  Thus the load adjusters- plates on side that drop off. 

I too would like more....science

Tendo Sports Machines designed a power measurement device, called the FIRTROdyne Sports Powerlyzer, known by most strength coaches as the Tendo Unit.  The Tendo Unit provides coaches and athletes instant feedback on muscle power (meters per second or watts) while weight training.

The Tendo Unit consists solely of a velocity sensor (dynamometer) and a microcomputer. The velocity sensor connects to the weight complements of a Kevlar elastic cable. The user must manually input the weight he plans to lift into the microcomputer. The velocity sensor is connected with a wire to the microcomputer which will subsequently read and analyze the velocity data and combine the results with the weight data to obtain the power measurements.

Bar speed is measured in meters per second, power output is calculated, reps are counted, and percentage breakdowns of all values are provided.

Here are the device's specific features:

- The microcomputer with LED displays shows average / peak power and average / peak velocity, number of repetition and the percent value of the best repetition in a particular set.

- Decrease / increase of power below / above a certain predefined percent value of max. power will be indicated by means of an audio signal.

- Adjustable lower and upper limit of audio signal.

- Data from up to 90 repetitions can be stored and later retrieved from the memory.

- The microcomputer can be used for barbells and most weight exercise machines.

- Metric and English measurement system.

The Tendo Unit is used by approximately 81 college, university and professional coaches and athletes as well as rehabilitation specialists, primarily in the United States.

We had 4 of the most well known strength coaches at a convention last year, with a round table style talk about their combined 100 years as professional strength coaches. Between them was about 4 Super Bowl Rings, 6 NBA Rings, 5 National Championship Rings, and a few National Records. When it was all boiled down, the collective concensus was

THESE ARE THE TWO MOST IMORTANT FACTORS IN POWER SPORTS:

1. Power (velocity x mass) produced with in the first .2 seconds

2. speed of deceleration and change of direction (reversability)

Basically, after that everything else is details. If you are not training for these components specifially in mind, you are giving away huge performances. period.

"Good and slow ain't good"

Excellent advice.

Remember, by definition, any type of throwing is a power event, not a strength event.  Although different throwing events are distributed along the speed-strength continuum, they all involve speed to a significant extent.

Bert, I love the saying at the conclusion of your post.  I think you should include that as part of your signature line.

Great comment Bert. Out of curiousity who were they?

There was a guy I was beating years ago at every games. I knew I was a very average pro but this guy should have been beating me. He was "good and slow." I knew what to say to the guy but I was enjoying beating him too much and didn't want to lose out on the money. Finally I looked at him in the middle of throwing the 28 and said, "You look great you're just slow. Speed up."

I never beat him again.

The faster you go the greater the pull on your body with centrifugal force. Hence the need for all the strength to hold the positions correctly. I'm sure someone here can comment on how much pull there is on your body if you're throwing the disc 200 feet or a wire hammer 220. It's amazing.

Two things I wish I had had the opportunity to train seriously with are the Tendo unit and the safety squat bar.

The Coaches were:

Boyd Epley - University of Nebraska for the last 20 something years, the first official college strength coach, he basically invented the position and help fight for the pay scale, one of the founding members of NSCA

Al Miller - NFL Strength Coach, he coached with Bear Bryant, studied the Russians in the 80's, Coached at the Falcons and Giants, among other teams

Al Vermiel- NBA Strength Coach, Chicago Bulls early 90's till 2007

Meg Stone- First female strength coach for a football team - ever (University of Arizona) national coach for Scotland, worked at USA Oly training center, still holds collegiate discus record (over 220') cleaned 352, and squatted over 550 in her day. Competed at the "Mountain Man Games" held by Fuerbach, Wilkins, Oldfield etc.

Pretty educated group.

I want to say that I remember reading the force on the body with a 70m (230') wire hammer throw is about 550lb. Take into account that you are on ONE leg for certain times during the throw.

I've read up on Boyd and been around the huskerpower site.

I'd love to hang around there for a week and see how they do things.

To see some cool stuff go to  http://huskerpower.com/ - huskerpower.com

One of the college coaches just emailed this article to me, it talks about the use of heartrate monitors and Tendo unit. Pretty cool

http://www.showmenews.com/2007/Oct/20071028Spor011.asp - http://www.showmenews.com/2007/Oct/20071028Spor011.asp

Kerry,

I would like to hear Bert and others comment on this but I would say that in your specific example of a total beginner the answer is definitely yes, but the answer becomes increasingly less clear and more complicated the stronger and more well-trained the athlete is.  Personally, I would NOT use the squat to test "explosiveness" as opposed to "strength".  Instead, I would use standing broad jump at a given bodyweight, overhead shot toss (especially relative to previous attempts by the same athlete), power snatch with minimal dip at the catch, 3-5 consecutive jumps, etc. 

Limit strength and explosiveness are definitely correlated but they are also definitely different things.  It also depends on what exactly you mean by "explosiveness".  The two factors outlined above by Bert, which are generally referred to as 1. Starting Strength and 2. Reversability pretty much cover off the term, but even these two factors are different, if correlated.  I would suggest that the more advanced the athlete the less these various factors are correlated.  This is why throwers who participate in Strongman contests almost always win the throwing-type events and yet usually get killed in the pure strength events like squatting or deadlifting variations.

But what do I know?

Kerry,

I would have to say no based on seeing powerlifters try to become throwers over the years. If you're serious about throwing you have to eventually give up training like a weightlifter of any kind (power, olympic) with the weights and begin training like a thrower with them.

The struggle as a thrower is to maintain strength AND speed. Since we're all built differently many of us can do it differently. The stuff that Valenti is using is very interesting to me in regards to this.

I like how Mac will ask every now and then something to the effect of, "How strong do you have to be to be a thrower?"

Bert,

Wow I didn't even think about what training would be like combining the hr monitor and a tendo unit! It's got to be much more efficient and productive. I'll try to read that tonight.

Jason Pauli wrote: I would have to say no based on seeing powerlifters try to become throwers over the years. If you're serious about throwing you have to eventually give up training like a weightlifter of any kind (power, olympic) with the weights and begin training like a thrower with them.

I disagree.

Valenti wrote: Ok someone is going to yell at me for this one I am betting.  I hear all the time from people that you only have to be so strong to throw and then the returns of getting stronger have less and less of an effect on performance. Guess what,,,NONE OF YOU ARE THAT STRONG.  Not even Craig or Dave Brown or even Mike Smith in his Prime.  If you want to throw far and get better the easiest way to do it is get in the gym and make yourself more powerful.  That comes from weightlifting, powerlifting,bodybuilding and jumping. Find a way that works for you and get STRONGER

POTY.

I'll agree with Mark. The point where you can stop worrying about how strong you are as a thrower is waaaaaaay out there.

Craig tell me where you disagree with me and I'll tell you where you're wrong.

I'll try to clear it up with this... You need train with the weights in a way that will make you a better thrower, not necessarily a better weightlifter.

For example I never benched that much because I didn't think it would help my throwing that much and I saw a few throwers that benched a lot get screwed up shoulders. However I hit my low back, glutes, and hammies hard in the weightroom (good mornings, weighted hypers, and especially straight legged deadlifts off a block) because I felt like it gave me the biggest gains in throwing.

Jason Pauli wrote: Craig tell me where you disagree with me and I'll tell you where you're wrong.

Me.

I don't think anyone would ever look at my training and mistake it for a thrower's training.  Bert trains like a thrower, i don't.

kover wrote: Ok guys not to rain on this tendo parade here but, I have a question for you.  Do you think if your stronger your more exposive?  Example if I take a kid out here and say that he can squat 100# for a max.  Now 6 weeks later this kid squats 135# for his max but does it slower than he did the 100#  is this kid less explosive?

Not if his power output is higher. 

Based on my calc, his power output is about the same if it takes him 1.3 secs to squat 135, versus 1 sec to squat 100.

C. Smith wrote: Jason Pauli wrote: Craig tell me where you disagree with me and I'll tell you where you're wrong. Me. I don't think anyone would ever look at my training and mistake it for a thrower's training.  Bert trains like a thrower, i don't.

You are abnormal, but in a good way.....

I like to use the ole KISS  system of training and throwing.  Keep It Simple Stupid.  Everyone use to say why do you deadlift that is a slow lift you will not benefit from that.   HAHA suckers your wrong.  I do benefit from it.  Larry Brock may not but I do.  Valenti put it best find what works for you and do it. 

Kdogg i think your wrong. 

Now would everyone agree that sprinters are explosive.  Well the more force that they can be applied to the ground the faster you are.  Highland games, the more force you apply into the ground to lift the implement the farther it goes.  Caber stop and pop, feet hit ground force is applied in a squat manner traps pull thru.  56 wob standing or in my case spin either.  A deadlift position all the way. 

Jason your comment is correct in a sense.  Flexibility is key to also throwing far. Some powerlifters have very little flex in there arms and torso.  The guy that comes to my mind is Mike Smith.  What about Myles Wetzl  (MASTERS WORLD CHAMP)  Is he beating the system.    I love  to stir it.

kover wrote: Now would everyone agree that sprinters are explosive.  Well the more force that they can be applied to the ground the faster you are.  Highland games, the more force you apply into the ground to lift the implement the farther it goes.  .

Kerry,

While I agree that a KISS approach is generally good, I am going to respectfully suggest that you are greatly oversimplifying both points above in trying to make your point.  Without getting into specific numbers, you must understand that the individual periods in which decent sprinters are actually applying force to the ground are very brief - much, much faster than the period in which anyone develops their max force levels.  So, while completely agreeing that sprinters are explosive and benefit from being powerful, let's just say that the relationship between limit stength, which is what I believe you are referring to, and speed is complicated and perhaps even tenuous.  Much more relevant are the two factors Bert originally noted, namely starting strength and reversability or elastic strength. 

The same thing would be true for any throwing event, since the period it takes to generate one's full limit strength exceeds the delivery phase of most throws.  Rather, the ability to effectively absorb the forces generated in the preliminary stages of the throw and very rapidly explode through the delivery stage is key, and this involves a combination of reversability and starting strength. 

Increases in limit strength are (very) valuable to the extent that they help increase starting strength and reversability, but there are other, more specific, ways to increase these factors (in addition to actually throwing, of course) that should not be ignored.  Olympic lift variations, speed squats, "heaving" (overhead shot toss), box jumps, plyometrics, and intense sprinting all work these factors in ways that a gut-busting deadlift or squat with a 3 or 4 second concentric phase just cannot.  So get "strong" - it certainly will help and this is an important part of any thrower's off-season program.  But don't ignore the other, more specific types of strength.  As a thrower, you should be trying to achieve a state more akin to a BMW M5 than a Mack truck.

Whatever you are doing is obviously working well for you (as well as Craig and Myles), but I wanted to share my thoughts on the subject.

Kindest Regards,

Peter Ingleton.

p.s. Why do you think Kearney is wrong?

Q: Joe,

I am a high school football coach and I have some boys getting pretty strong but I want to increase their explosiveness.  I have always been told that this is accomplished through using Olympic lifts such as power cleans, snatches, etc.

I just finished reading your answer about Olympic lifts stating, "they are not necessary or I would have included them."

What do I do for explosiveness if I don't do Olympic lifts?

Rick

A: Rick,
It’s amazing to me that people still have such a hard time letting go of the Olympic lifts. For some reason, when coaches hear the word “explosiveness”, they automatically think ‘Olympic lifting’. We must start thinking “outside of the box” in terms of our programming for athletes!

To me, the Olympic lifts are kind of like a distant cousin…although you never see or talk to this cousin, you feel obligated to invite him/her to family parties, weddings, etc., because he/she is “family”. Like distant cousins, the Olympic lifts won’t go away because coaches feel obligated to “invite” them into any training program where “explosiveness” is one of the goals. The reason that most coaches feel obligated is because that’s what the coach before him/her did; and it’s what the coach before that coach did; and it’s what two coaches before that coach did. Hopefully you get my point. Well, it’s time to get out of this rut that we’ve been in for so many years and try something new. There are so many other options to develop “explosiveness” in athletes. Let’s start incorporating some other options! Hell, while we’re at it, let’s stop inviting distant family members that we barely even know to family parties and weddings!

Sorry for that little rant, but this is a topic that really bothers me and it just won’t go away. Anyway, here are just a few examples of exercises that we use to build explosiveness in our athletes…

Dynamic box squats using 45-70% of the athletes 1 RM for 2-rep sets. Focus on moving the weight as fast as possible. (You can accommodate resistance using bands and/or chains with your more advanced athletes.)
Box jumps (double leg, single leg)
Hurdle Jumps (Jump over hurdle and land on ground)
Vertical Jumps
Broad jumps
Depth jumps
Sprinting
Bounding
Overhead medicine ball throws
Plyometric push-ups
*All jump variations can be performed wearing a light weighted vest or holding light dumbbells. 

I know people like “real world” examples, so I will end this question by showing our most popular training video…AGAIN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUHXKSOvcgE&eurl=http://w ww.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_07-06-22.h tm

Remember that this kid added 14 inches to his box jump in only 5 months and he has NEVER performed an Olympic lift. In fact, I think it’s safe to say that if I had him perform Olympic lifts, not only would he suck at them, he would still be stuck at a 40” box jump!

Here’s another classic example…

Miles Austin showed up on my doorstep as one of the most explosive athletes that I ever met. As advanced as he was, he still improved his vertical jump from 37.5” to 43” on my program without ever performing an Olympic lift!

I literally have hundreds of similar success stories; we see HUGE improvements in “explosiveness” every single day with kids that are on our program. (That’s why I get so frustrated with this topic!!)

The bottom line is that the Olympic lifts are not magic. Start incorporating jump training & sprinting into your athletes program in conjunction with your strength training and enjoy the same results that we have been getting with our athletes for years!

Joe D.

Peter you have very good points.  Sprinters use force for the first 10 m and then basically bound the other 90m. 9ft is about what we have to generate as much rotational speed as possible and then BAM! lift. 

I would like to say that i am not against explosive lifts either.  I use explosive lifts.  Now when i do an olympic style lift it is very different from anyone elses olympic lifts.  I never jump under when snatching.  I try and take the bar to the roof.  My powercleans are done without a catch phase, ( i cant wait to hear all the oly lifters chime in)  WHY catch?? do we jump under the caber after we start turning it.  Do we jump under the standing wob?  I never start high in my spin with the wts so that i can jump under at the end.  Valenti has it right.  All the current work has been done on track people who do 1 event , 1 tech, not 7 or 9 events all with different aspects of speed and power. 

Why is Kdogg wrong because he is always wrong.  I love to fight with him.  We just got into it about fork length at Richmond.  Then fought about fork wt and the effect it had on the throw.  I love to say he is wrong just to see both sides of  it.  I am very open minded when it comes to training. That is why i started this thing rolling to hear all of the thoughts on here.  I would like to thank everyone for putting in there two cents worth.  Please feel free to continue to do so.    Love KO

I just had a conversation about strength and conditioning in general with some friends the other night. I made the comment that things are in so much flux in this field right now it makes it difficult to know what to do in what sport.

I think Mark's comments get to that. There's a lot of experimentation going on. People have a hard time letting go of things we believed to be true and grabbing onto new ideas. His comment about finding what works best for you and do it is the truth of it all.

This becomes more and more true in the upper levels of sports. But for us you find more differences. People throw but they also like to lift. There's little price to pay if we choose to abuse ourselves a bit more in the weightroom verses someone looking at make a living at what they're doing.

In other words... you gotta be you, throwing be damned.

Mark,

Why did you delete the article you originally posted?  It was good, although for the most part it supported everything I said, particularly when you consider that the subject was the training of football players as opposed to throwers and some of the points were very specific to the physical abuse that football players are subjected to as part of the game and the importance of not compounding this. 

Another primary point contained in the article was the concern that the Olympic lifts are technical and therefore take time to learn etc.  First of all, I am not advocating that anyone who is not a competitve Olympic lifter learn or perform full squat snatches or clean & jerks.  Furthermore, if you don't want to take the moderate amount of time required to master a power clean caught very high or hang snatch caught very high, or if you don't want to subject your shoulders or wrists to potential strain, then do snatch or clean high pulls.  These are certainly simple enough movements for any athlete to learn and do not involve any body impacts. 

Finally, if you want to regularly include high box jumps, weighted box jumps, heaving, and other explosive excercises in your training instead of cleans, snatches, or pulls I don't think you would suffer much at all from the abscence of the dynamic pulls.  However, this is very different than saying just do heavy squats and deadlifts, which I realize nobody has really said, and that none of you guys actually limits your training in this way, but sometimes that's almost how it can come across.

A final point, this one with respect to both the previous article and the excerpt posted above, is that a lot of bigger guys, especially if you are either very big and strong (or pretty big and not so strong) is that some (if not a lot) of the jumping movements are going to be excessively hard on the knees, shins, and hips.  Jumps onto a box or bounding up a flight of stairs (a la Myles) are both usually okay, but if you are a big guy, especially a big, older guy, you had better be careful about actually jumping over a high hurdle, and be very, very careful about doing multiple hurdle hops.  I love jumping etc. and think that type of work is extremely valuable, but the point is the dynamic pulls offer a reasonably similar benefit with little or no risk.

Kerry,

As a thrower, I would say that what you are describing is actually the preferred method of lifting, as the point is to maximize one's extension during the lift and generate as much verticle power output as possible.  Whether you are catching the bar (a power clean) or just pulling it to somewhere between your nipples and your neck before letting it drop again (a high pull) is basically a personal preference based largely on training background and whether or not the athlete has any shoulder or wrist issues.  Again, nobody is suggesting that you actually lift like an Olympic lifter or anything like that.  The point is, does an athlete's lifting/training program address the element of explosiveness in some way, in addition to the element of limit strength? 

Finally, with respect to the differences between T&F throwers and HG athletes, I am a relative newbie so I will only say that although many of the Heavy Events definitely involve heavier implements, all of the events involve a very significant degree of speed-strength, or "explosiveness", as opposed to simply limit strength.  I know all of you know that, and there may just be a different interpretation of how to train that quality in the most effective manner.  Personally, I think the biggest difference between T&F and HG is that because there are multiple events to train for and several of those events involve relatively heavy implements, those who train for HG seriously are getting  a ton of event-specific speed-strength training just from throwing, and may have little need for other forms of this work, at least during the throwing season.

Note:  I know realize that during my earlier post I was conflating "starting strength" with what is actually two separate elements, namely "starting strength" and what is variously known as "explosive strength" or "acceleration strength".  This oversite has no real effect on any of the points I tried to make.

Good training, whatever that means to you.

Peter.

Mark,

Whatever you want.  It was interesting, but a lot of the main points were fairly football specific.

Peter.

roy wrote: You are abnormal, but in a good way.....

That's exactly what im talking about, how do you know?  No one else trains like i do, but people are quick to dismiss what i do based on my genetics, strength, or whatever.  Who's to say that what i do doesn't work?  Until someone tries it, reports on it, we're just speculating. 

Valenti and KO (Zolk and his big deads too) all incorporate some of it and it has helped them throw further and higher.  I think the deadlift debate is hilarious, i do heavy deads, KO does heavy deads, Myles does heavy deads, Zolk does heavy deads and we seem to do ok in the standing WOB.  But i guess those heavy grinding lifts don't help, huh?

Highland games are not track and field!!!  Like KO said, we have to be more well rounded that one specific event.  A general, overall strength lends well to that.  I'm not talking kinda strong, or sorta strong, im talking nasty bloody nose deadlifting strong.   

peter wrote: Olympic lift variations, speed squats, "heaving" (overhead shot toss), box jumps, plyometrics, and intense sprinting all work these factors in ways that a gut-busting deadlift or squat with a 3 or 4 second concentric phase just cannot.  So get "strong" - it certainly will help and this is an important part of any thrower's off-season program.  But don't ignore the other, more specific types of strength.  As a thrower, you should be trying to achieve a state more akin to a BMW M5 than a Mack truck.

Again, if you haven't done what we do (and KO does do some of the above apecific exercises, but i dont), how can you been so quick to rule it out?  I'm not talking science or tendo units, im talking really real world field research.  Do X, and see what happens.  I know heavy deads work, without any plyos, jumps, etc... and i have the field research to prove it.

I love discussions like this. 

MJurkoic wrote: Craig, how much do you deadlift? I want to get an idea what "nasty bloody nose deadlifting strong" is.

Matt, from what i hear i'm sure you are already in the range im talking about, 7+.

Craig,

A few points, made with the greatest respect:

1.  You are obviously doing something right indeed, an no, I can't do anything close to what you do at this point in my life (if I ever could).

2.  Although your recent program doesn't include a dynamic pull or any jumping etc., it does include two of my favourite lifting movements for HG - front squats and push presses.  Push presses are a dynamic movement.

3. Your program notes that you will be doing max deadlifts and zercher squats once a month this year.  At least arguably, that is closer to a testing regime than a training regime.  Was this also the case in past years?  For the sake of discussion, why should we consider a lifting movement you do once a month to be important to your success as a thrower?  Why do you believe your results are not entirely due to your excellent results in the front squat and the push press, for example?

4.  Dave Barron has similar results to yours in the weight for height and is a similar height and yet his deadlift is much lower than yours, supposedly only around 500 pounds or so.  If you look down the WOB ranking list there are several other examples of very different athletes with very similar or identical WOB results.

5. Finally, I have never suggested that being very strong is not a huge asset, even in the sense of basic limit strength, just that there are other strength-related attributes that are at least as important to one's throwing results.

Take care.

Peter.

kover wrote: Why is Kdogg wrong because he is always wrong.  I love to fight with him.  We just got into it about fork length at Richmond.  Then fought about fork wt and the effect it had on the throw.

power = weight * velocity, so if Lawrence moves the 50lb dumbell 2 feet from bottom to standing while attached to his nutsack in 1 sec, but after training "underhead squats" is able to cut his time in half with the same weight, he is now generating twice as much power.

Either way.........deads in my opinion are "one" of the best overall ways to improve overall body "strength" If I had to pick only ONE lift to do the rest of my life it would be deads. As far as the debate goes.....I have seen great throwers that are weak in the weight room and a TON of strong guys that cant throw sh$t!

No clarification of "with respect" is necessary peter, these discussions are great. 

1. My point was that people dismiss what i do, when in fact it may work very well for them.

2.  It's not just my recent program, i have never included dynamic pulls or jumps.  Agreed that my push press is dynamic, i attribute my stone throwing to that.  And i front squat beacuse i can't back squat.  But i do feel they are very benificial.

3.  Indeed, this years program has me zerchering and deadlifting once a month, ideally so i can increase those two lifts.  In previous years i have done a heavy zercher and a heavy dead once a week (every other week, one week zerch, one week dead).  My fronts squats, although they aren't there yet, will be heavy once a week.  You have to realize that now i don't care about being a thrower.  I don't practice, i'm just out there to have fun.  But in years past, when i did care about throwing, my program included and excluded the same things.  As for my results being correlated with my front squat, it can't attribute it to that.  I just started front squatting recently, and was throwing plenty big before that on exclusive zerchers.

4.  Dave Barron likes to lead on that he is much weaker than he actaully is.  As for other athletes having similar results in the standing WOB, without a big dead, who?

5.  I realize you've never said that ;-)  I just disagree with you saying that other attributes are at least as important.  This is where my field research disagrees with you.

if there is one overriding theme in all the lifting discusses whether deads or oly lifts there is one commonality that is the most important.

INTENT.... When you do the oly lifts you must create the intent to do it explosively.  Without intent you can still finish some lifts but be less then as explosive as can be.  The same with deads... intent has to be there.

There have been numerous studies on teh subject relative to bar speed, resistance etc and the one commonality for max recruitment in an explosive manner is intent.  You do cleans and have the intent of being as explosive as possible ... not just to finish the lift... when you do deads have the intent to be explosive... the bar may move slower but you still created the intent to be explosive.

The value of a tendo unit lies in its ability to give feedback on intent.

As for intensities Craig doing max effort work once a month is not just about testing it is also about the maximum effort method of training.

Craig,

Getting away from the deadlifting debate for a moment - you are obviously "powerful" as opposed to just "strong" (if you will allow that there is a difference).  I was curious if you knew what your results have been in the last year or two for things like the standing broad jump, standing vertical jump, box jump, or overhead shot toss, and at about what bodyweight?  What about you Kerry, Mark, or any others? 

I personally believe that these types of tests (with bodyweight factored in) have the highest correlation to events like the WOB, and that deadlifts, front squats, box squats etc., etc. are merely the foundation for superior results in these tests.  Bottom line - if you are a big guy with a good standing broad jump or standing vertical jump or you can jump onto a 42"-48" box, you are probably going to be able to toss a weight pretty well, regardless of whether you did power snatches, deadlifts, or triceps pressdowns as your primary lift.  Conversely, if you have a 700 pound dead but can barely jump onto a trig, I am going to suggest you will have limited success as a thrower.

Anyone willing to share their results, or go find out and report back?

Peter, i have no idea what my results would be in those things, as i've never done them.  I would be glad to test them and report the results though.

My bodyweight as of last week was 274.5.

Dave,

They are calling you names (again).  In the interests of furthering a less-than-scientific inquiry are you willing to share your deadlift, power clean, and front squat numbers???

For what it's worth, before Alma last spring, my max power clean (caught on straight legs) was 275# and my full, raw front squat was 365#-375#.  I have no idea what I might have done in a full conventional deadlift, but it would probably have between 405# and 455# max.

My best 16# shot overhead backwards toss was 53 feet off level ground, but I was never that great at these compared to some other throwers.  I was also able to easily and repeatedly jump onto a 44.5" box from a seated position, and certainly could have gone higher if I had tried, which is not bad for a 41 year old weighing about 260.  Unfortunately, I never bothered to formally test my standing broad jump this year, but it would have been well below my lifetime best of 3.14m (about 10'4"), likely about 2.75m (about 9'), albeit at a much higher bodyweight.

Anyone else willing to share???

Peter  I have tested the broad jump and the vertical.  I hit my all time best this yr  when i pulled a nasty 7hundee on the deads all slow and crazy like.  which again comes back to my main point.  No fancy smancy units needed.  Get stronger and the farther i throw.  

This is not the recipe for everyone.  I know that.  I can remember 2 yrs ago when RV showed up with traps past his head and thick all over. He threw BOMBS that yr.  I saw Larry kick the crap out of everyone this yr and he swears he does none of the big wts  However the vertict is still out on that.  larry likes to be a lil shady on his training.  Eric F throws farther when he is in his lifting prime.  Check his #s in the summer and then check his  fall and spring #s.   Dave Barron  is  a liar that kid is strong.   Valenti got stronger last yr and what happened best yr he has ever had.  

Peter my suggestion is for you to get stronger and see what happens.

Like Craig said you have to do it and then see what the results are.

Kerry,

So what were your jumping numbers and at what bodyweight???

Also, Dave seems to be sticking to his story.  I have no idea, but why would he lie?  His throwing numbers speak for themselves in any case.  It's not like he is an unknown entity.

I agree with Mr. Baab, the board is so nice with some positive action and some real throwers putting up some scoop.  Thank you pro men.  I want people to understand that I appreciate Mike is so many ways as a friend and competitor.  He has driven me and helped me in so many ways, while I kid about helping him, I relish in anything I can do to help the man.  I am in awe of him many times and most folks of any class can't hold his jock in the variety, voracity and volume of his work. 

Senior Overfelt, with much respect I realize I am a throwing neophite compaired with your advanced status, I just wanted to point to how things have changed and we have evolved.  If you have not gotten to throw with KO, you have missed something great in life.  It is a joy. 

I understand you perfect Chris, your saying I'm weak. 

Craigor wrote - "As for other athletes having similar results in the standing WOB, without a big dead, who?"

I know I am not current but in 04 I pulled 16'6" (Not exactly similar to you 17+ guys but not far away either) and could not deadlift 500#'s if my life depended on it.  And I have witnesses to both feats (or lack thereof).

Thats just 1 example.  All in All, I support the dead, there are to many examples supporting it to dispute it's value in standing WOB.

RoyBoy - You're one of those strong genetic freaks (college throwing scholarship and a 385 x 4 power clean) whocares how much you can/could dead? ....But you are waaaay outside the norm - all non freaks get in the gym and get stronger..............we must remember that all pro boyz are freaks of some sort - strong or fast or both.

Yea, i actually thought of you when i wrote that Roy.  You and dave are just outliers though, and both have BIG cleans. 

Like you said though, the support is there for jerkin a big dead off the floor.

• Strength
  
• Quickness (foot speed)
• Explosiveness (turnaround)
• Range of Motion (ability to hit positions and with enough room to apply force)
  
• Balance
  
• Technique

Mike,

Good points. I think that is exactly what this thread has turned into, and for good reason...a conceptual look at the factors of throwing. You HAVE to be balanced in your abilities. If you are super flexable but cannot deadlift 225 you will not throw very far. If you deadlift 800 but can not get out of your own way, you are sunk as well. The whole point is not that a specific piece of equipment of exercise will solve all of your problems, but for each athlete to honestly look at his or her strengths and weaknesses and make the chain as even as possible. Some of the guys here are gifted in one or more components due to God given ability. C Smith is very strong, but also a very good natural athlete (you cannot throw 55' in the stone with no throwing background if not, I don't care how strong you are).

With this in mind I feel it is very important to TEST these qualities if you truely want to maximize YOUR potential. From those test results you should build your training model, not do what worked for a guy who is different natural athlete. Yes, there will be positive carry-over for those with huge numbers in one thing or another, but the best all around thrower will be the man that has it all, including heart and ice cold nerves under pressure. I do not think it is a matter if you do cleans, speed deads, KB swings, box squats or just throw a lot, every athlete will need a different balance of each.

Be honest with yourself and if you have a weakness, be enough of a man to face it and fix it, not just do the stuff you are good at. If I did only speed work I would get killed on the field because I would weight 205lb., I have to do heavy and body building stuff just to put on mass. A man like Dave Brown would have a different training plan, seeing he is huge, tall and super strong (also very fast ).

Specific pieces of equipment just offer some variation to the training, can strengthen weakness and give quantifiable data to your current results, which for many may be the key to getting to the next level.

Great discussion by the way, LOTS of awesome info!!!!!!!!!!!!

by the way I just got done doing a bitchin front squat workout 135x3, 225x3, 275x3, 315x3, 335x3, 365x1, 365x1, 385x1, 315x8, in efforts to be bigger and stronger. I KNOW what I need to do to get to the next level.

Happy training everyone!

Been wantin' to post this all day as a confession...

I'm a dead hater because of my olympic lifting pedigree and loyalty.

Maybe "hater" is too strong but you get my point.

But... I have done things that are very similar:
Straight leg deadlift off a block
-One of my favorites!
Stop pulls
-Stand on plates in a clean position. Take the bar an inch off the ground and hold it for 5 seconds. Then take it to the knees for another 5. Finally to mid thigh for another 5. Use enough weight so your face turns purple and you have significant eye bulging.
Romanian deadlift
-I know there's controversy over exactly what this is. For me it was a deadlift in a clean position.

EXCELLENT summary by Bert!

I'm glad people are eating this stuff up. This is pure gold! Taking this advice could take you to the next level as a thrower.

Great topic and thought I would add some thoughts:

I believe that you need to be strong to throw far but not with out technique.

I believe you can rely on technique up to a point

I believe I was a lot stronger than I am now and I would have thrown a lot further then.

I believe that you need to train the body to react to the ground or the implement to throw farther

I believe that to throw far you need to practice and practice intelligently

I believe if you use the implement rather than fight it, you will throw further

I believe athleticism, discipline, focus, competitiveness, and willingness to listen and learn will make you throw further

I believe that I had some success in the games because of my T&F background but that didn’t give me all the answers

I believe I went 16 in WOB because I willed it & I had a good clean and F. squat work out going

I believe if I was in my 20’s I whip all your asses (just checking to see if you hung in there to the end)

I think my thing was power and flexibility.  If something was already in motion I could really rip on it.  Back in the days of those big cleans, I could overhead a shot in the mid 60's and highjump 6'2" at 230 lbs.  I still could not break 500 sitting still of the floor.  But I could break 450, and once I broke it I could rep it for 8-12 machine like with a slight tap and go.  Again, already in motion.

Lots of good names with vast experience chiming in here, we got the nosebleedmeatheads and the Oly style tracky geeks.  This is good stuff.

Zolk is interesting because he now has a steady background in both I would say.  I think he is diggin the meathead style a bit more nowadays.

Silverback wrote: That is epic, nasty, stinky, down and dirty strong.

I don't care who you are, When a man like Myles says this about you your chest just has to puff up a bit.

Love to ya Bro!

Sleepy time.

great stuff guys...one of the best threads on this board in months.

i was thinking about why i don't do heavy deads...and actually, why i don't do heavy anything, for almost the entire year...and realized that it makes me to sore to throw the next day (and usually the day after that...) 

as a "thrower who lifts", technique is top priority and weight is secondary in my program.  i recall, though, when i was a "lifter who throws", i was always trying to move numbers up and lift as much as i could.  in my head, a bigger squat meant farther throws.  it never worked for me.  when i made a very calculated decision to change my perception of myself and my training habits/lifestyle, i stopped the heavy lifts.  there's always room to improve technique.  after throwing things for half my life, i'm only beginning to learn what makes me throw far...and for me, there's a lot more room for improvement of technique than for strength.

that said, there's a base strength that i think is necessary to be able to maintain the technique / resist the forces generated during the throw.  when my throws aren't at the ldistances i expect for how my technique feels, and all other "Life stressors" are accounted for, i turn back to the weights and get a lift back into the base strength range where it needs to be maintained...  for me, base numbers are around 365x5 FS, 315 c&j, 225 snatch.  (what kinds of numbers does everyone else require to stay in throwing shape?)  and when i get one of these higher than this base (usually unexpectedly), i end up with a PR in something.

this offseason, i'll be pulling deads as heavy and as slow as i can.  there's something about picking heavy stuff off the ground that just puts you together. 

Mike... I agree with you about the strength and the technique debate in our minds. To answer your question about how strong you need to be to throw far is in my mind answered best with "Strong enough to hold the positions I want and to accelerate the implement effectively"

Your strength numbers are adequate for someone with a good strength base and technique along with feeling confident about both.

Roy you say that you have could not pull 500  but you have  a huge powerclean.  Could you explain to me what your first motion in the powerclean is,  you know when your down in the DEADLIFT position at the bottom.  OHH  wait a minute Roy I may be on to something here.  You do have a big dead in you.  You never trained that way you always trained for that quick pop in the clean.  Sorry losing my focus here.  I always love to hear guys that talk about doing powercleans say they do not deadlift,  it tickles me to think that.  You do deadlifts as soon as you come up with the bar that is a deadlift.  So Roy you could have pulled a big dead in your time if you had trained for it.  You may have been to skeered to do it  LOL!!

Myles thanks for the sweet words my man.   I am getting chocked up here.  Coming down this winter for some training  you down with that.

I can relate to what Kerry and Roy are both saying about cleans vs. deadlift.

A real deadlift just seemed so far our there for me even though, as Kerry says, getting a clean started is very similar. I always thought of the deadlift as the incredibly slow, incredibly grinding it out movement. I never, EVER thought of the clean that way but you can.

Excellent thread. I don't have much to add as I'm at best a part time thrower, however a couple of things came to mind.

Olympic lifts are not the be all and end all of explosiveness. If when I grow older injuries creep in (as they are already) which disallow cleans and snatches, I believe dynamic SLDLs would be a very worthy substitute.

Relying on strength can be a very good thing. I'd be willing to bet that someone like Craig Smith rarely throws very poorly if he is healthy, unlike those who rely PRIMARILY on rhythm and technique. The second type of thrower could well lose plenty of distance in a high pressure situation or in a prolonged period of 'technical lapse'. This principle seems to be what sustained some of the great glide shot putters of the 80's. If you have the strength to stand the shot 70 feet, gliding 68 to make an Olympic final no longer appears so daunting.

Pragmatism is abounding here. Some throw far despite what they do in training, not as a result of their training. The end (distance) does not automatically justify the means. Maybe some could throw further if they embraced limit strength in deadlifts etc, or perhaps others could gain further distance by doing olympic lifts.

Keep it up boys. I'm suddenly itching to do a WFH competition Nov 17 and Waipu on January 1st.

I just want to pick up on two small points that were included above:

1.  The importance of confidence or feeling strong.  Some things are valuable largely or at least partially because they give you confidence or make you feel strong.  I remembered reading a quote from Adam Nelson and went back to Adam's site and found it. It reads:

Don't forget that in general throwers need a certain amount of strength, and for most of us it's easier to develop in the weight room. You should have a good idea of some basic strength levels you WANT and NEED to throw the distances you want to throw.

What's that? WANT and NEED? What's the difference? Well, here's the deal. You do need need a certain base line of strength -- it doesn't have to come from the weight room. However, you also have "WANTS" that affect your confidence level. For example, I need to be able to bench about 400lbs easily to throw far. However, I want to be able to bench about 500lbs (and sometimes more;)). If I hit the 500lb mark, it does wonders for my confidence levels. A word of caution: know when enough is enough. There's tendency to keep wanting more "weight room" strength. Don't fall into that trap.

Hope this helps,
Adam

2.  From big MAC (and echoed by a few others) - "Some throw far despite what they do in training, not as a result of their training. The end (distance) does not automatically justify the means. Maybe some could throw further if they embraced limit strength in deadlifts etc, or perhaps others could gain further distance by doing olympic lifts."

I offer this up in two senses. 

First, just because X did Y and achieved Z doesn't necessarily mean Y caused Z.  Maybe it did, or maybe Z was achieved because X had qualities or potential that lead to Z, or maybe it was something else in X's background.  You really have to look at the athlete and their entire program and training history.  If an athlete has been following a systematic, comprehensive program for several years, they may be lifting as much as they are because they are throwing as far as they are, NOT the other way around, i.e. the athlete's various lifts, technique, jumping abilities, etc. have all progressed to the point where they are able to throw a certain distance.  Don't look at a given lift, examine the entire program.

Second, as outlined very well by Bert, different athletes have different strengths and weaknesses, which should result in somewhat different areas of focus in their training.   

Another quote from Adam Nelson that illustrates these points:

In late september of 1999 I tore my right pec. Because of the tear, I couldn't do much bench work. 7 months later I was able to bench about 400lbs for a single, but it irritated my pec. From that moment on, my training weights didn't exceed about 275lbs and, more often than not, 225lbs.

The tear changed my training. I did a lot of mobility training. I did a lot of plyos. I did a lot of stretching. Basically, I became a better athlete. Since that time, I've been trying to find that balance again. It's not easy and, unfortunately, my needs change from year to year so the same program doesn't work all the time.

Adam

I am still hoping a few others will provide some of their lifting results and espcially the results of any jumping or other power tests, along with the bodyweight (and perhaps their height).

Keep up the great posts.

KO - If you perform cleans from an elevated paltform or from a hang there really isn't a true from the floor deadlift in the movement. Well you do have to get it off the floor and to your thigh to start the lift but that is only 1 rep.

One thing that gets lost in this discussion is the importance of biomechanics - lengths of limbs and so on. Roy has very long legs and for someone with his build a 450 dead is an impressive lift. Those long legs make a long slow pull from the floor extremely difficult but also allow him to pop the hell out of the bar once he gets it into position. In terms of power, a 16'6" WOB speaks for itself. In terms of strength (as opposed to power) I'd probably be more interested in knowing what Roy could rack pull from just below the knee. I think the DL from the floor is very misleading for some athletes.

In contrast, I have short legs (31" inseam) and so a pull from the floor ain't no big thing. My best dead is 600 (and I pulled 515 easily two years ago with just a belt and no DL training for over 5 years just to see if I could). On the other hand, my best WOB is only 13'6" (practice throw with a fixed bar).

I think Bert is all over this one, you have to figure out what YOU need in order to maximize your potential.

Steve D wrote: KO - If you perform cleans from an elevated paltform or from a hang there really isn't a true from the floor deadlift in the movement. Well you do have to get it off the floor and to your thigh to start the lift but that is only 1 rep.

Exactly, Steve beat me to it and saved me typing.  When I went really heavy in the clean, I would dead it, get set, and then drop the bar below the knees (about 4") and then pull like a bitch!

Most I pulled still from the floor was probably in the 375 range on the first rep only, heavier than 375, I would dead it and then repeat above.

dWood wrote: think Roy went 575+(18" d/l off rack) a few years back at strongman contest we did,,,it was just the first 6-9 inches with over 500 that gave him problems...very impressive wob of 16-6 without a 550lb d/l but extremly quick p/clean

Dan is almost right, I only went 535  and missed 555, pathetic.

Carlos, My inseam is only 32".  And I have long arms.  I think I am built like a dead lifter.       

But my low Lumbar has always had strength issues.

Is the WOB event like a static deadlift from the floor or is more of a dynamic movement where there is a up and down with timing involved?

Roy Bogue wrote: Carlos, My inseam is only 32".

On the bright side, it makes your dick look bigger (or at least that's what Steve told me).

That shoots a hole in my example although I still stand behind the basic notion.

Steve D wrote: Is the WOB event like a static deadlift from the floor or is more of a dynamic movement where there is a up and down with timing involved?

Neither Steve-O.  Its more like a movement where you throw a 56lb (or 42 or 28) weight over a bar. 

FWIW, I put 60lbs on my power clean after I cleared 15'6" in 2001 and that's still my PR.....

Carlos that was sweet.  You hit it  on the head.  The body types make a huge difference in your lifts. I am a deadlift body type  short fat  big child bearing hips,and long armed.  My torso is compact so i get into the bar and it so comfortable for me to deadlift.  There  is also the style of deads you do that make a difference also.  Craig does a sumo style  while i do the ole Franco columbo deads.  Being comfortable that makes a world of difference in this lift. 

Ok  Stevie I will bite on your theory of the dynamic movement.  When I have hit big hts in the wob it is when i swing the wt back and let it hit heels and think to myself  NOW FATTY DRIVE YOUR HEELS AND DEADLIFT THE CRAP OUT OF THIS.   A moving deadlift if you will.   According to RV I am the only under 6 feet thrower to hit 18'6 spinning and 17'1 standing.  What is your secret you ask  ......a big deadlift.  I set up my spin wob so that i land into a side dead position.

Now lets talk about this ole slow moving exc you gentlemen keep refering to.  Mike Shea once said to me after I asked him about hitting 700 on deads  "KO you grab the bar pull it in tight to your shin  get ready! then you drive your heels into the floor so F*&%$$@ hard and fast that your try and push thru all the way into satans horns" 

  WHEEWWWW  gave me goosebumps  hearing that ole raspy voice saying it to me.  My point is that the dead is not a slow gring out movement its explosive if done right  it just looks slow when you have a  bunch of wt on the bar.

Now as far as a hang clean or box cleans that is not what was posted. A powerclean in my book is from the floor.

KO - exactly. I think many of our track brethren see the monsters grinnnding up a 1000lbs torturous max. Try a set of 5-10 rep snatch grip deads w. about 30-50% of max trying to see how fast you can move it w.out ever putting it down. THOSE are the kind of deads I do ...or 18" dead singles HEAVY as hell.........Kerry - ever tried one armed deads? perfect for working that spin wob pull position...........Steve D - good to see you back sensei.

If you crouch down to a bar resting on the floor and pick it up real fast like but it only goes to the top of your thigh versus to your chest is it a dead lift or a olympic pull?

I'm starting to wonder if I'm a dead lifter in disguise

I would ask Larry B. but I'm not sure if the bow flex is equiped for these movements.

KO-

I think heavy deads would help in feeling what heavy weight feels like in your hand as wel as help your grip strength. If you did a couple sets of heavy deads then walked over to the 56 for a standing WOB it might help you mentally. Sort of like throwing a heavy hammer followed by a super light hammer. It would feel like a bluegrass fart compared to laying out some real yard furniture.

Here is my suggestion:

Meatheads - try OLY lifts (more than usual) but stick to your meathead stuff (as much as possible) this offseason and see what happens next year.

OLY guys - try meathead stuff (more than usual) but stick to your OLY stuff (as much as possible) this offseason and see what happens next year.

You will all be better for it.

They both work!

And as many say, you are only as good as your weakist link!

Strengthen it!

My game is tight......

Wayne Hill wrote: Word. And how's the back? -Wayne

It blows dog balls, I would have to train my arse off for a year + just to get back to where I was in 04.  Without further injury, this would be great.  (They say if I DO,  I could be F'ed forever.)

I am seriously thinking about some fusion surgery.  Like Myles has said, Injury does not cure an illness.  I am Ill to the extreme, and since I had to stop, my life has changed so much (not all that good).

I get angry (as can be seen by all), but I want everyone to understand that for the most part, it's just me dealing with a really tough reality, I have been learning to understand it.

Peace, Roy

Steve D wrote: So Craig, when are you going to do some field research on the dark side and start working in some form of O lifts? You might find yourself throwing even further or not.

Eh...that's just too much work at this point in my career.  I do wish i would have really learned them earlier in life though.  My O-lifts consist of one to two days before a game, snatches and jerks with 135lbs for CNS stimulation.  That's it.

Peter is right about "feeling stong" and having benchmarks to realize this.  For me, in season, as long as i can go in any day of the week, hit an easy 405 ATG front squat, 315 push press, or 635 dead, then i feel im equipped to throw.  Those number are quite a distance from my maxes or off season workouts, but they let me know that i will be able to throw.

Roy - well done. 

C. Smith wrote: Peter is right about "feeling stong" and having benchmarks to realize this.  For me, in season, as long as i can go in any day of the week, hit an easy 405 ATG front squat, 315 push press, or 635 dead, then i feel im equipped to throw.  Those number are quite a distance from my maxes or off season workouts, but they let me know that i will be able to throw. Roy - well done.

On that note, there was a HG guy down here who wouldn't compete if he couldn't hit about a 600lb deadlift the week before a games. That was his marker which gave him confidence.