With the season approaching, I'm curious to see what the different schools of thought have to say on training in general and obviously for the subject line, the WOB.  Is it time to really focus on throwing? or throw caution to the wind and still lift hard and heavy?  Or of course the third option of throwing more often (3-4 days a week) and lifting less often (1-3)...

I suggest the heavy lifting option because it seems besides timing, strength seems to be so important in the WOB (i say that knowing every lift has some degree of strength, but if strength wasn't so important, how is it that strongman types can do so well in the WOB?).  I am just not at the mark that I wanted to be at, which is okay, considering only recently started doing cleans and squats on a regular basis and for the first time ever, did snatches this year.   Mind you this, I'm not a little man and strength isn't foreign to me, but it just seems like if I could just hit the shoulders and legs a bit harder I'd be able to reach my goal quicker than just practice.  But then comes the chance for injury.  

What to do?  And if lifting is a possible way to go, then what lifts would particularly benefit the WOB? 

Basically what is the best way to train for the WOB?

if you still cannot clear 14' every time you try, I would go out and just toss the wob ALOT. Its heavy enough to count as lifting - you'll be tired I promise. 2 x a week go out and just take throws - with maybe 30 sec rest between tosses until you start to feel tired. Just keep trying to throw higher every time. Your body will naturally discover what it has to do to throw higher.

if you can already power clean 250 or more - I would say focus more on tossing with correct technique...keep cleaning and tossing and you will still get stronger - but emphasize the throws.

Repetition, repetition, repetition.  Your body will fall into the most efficient way to toss the weight.

Personally, I've found WOB discouraging because, unlike the other events, save sheaf, 1' jumps don't give  much feedback.  I have uprights in my backyard, and when I train, I increase by only 3".  Makes it easier to do the necessary repetitions when I can gauge progress.

Ask yourself these questions:

"Am I too weak to throw it that high?"

or

"Do I not have the technique to utilize my strength?"

If your weak, grow stronger, that one's easy.  If it is your technique then...more reps is not always better.  Especially if your reps are wrong.  You'll ingrain the wrong way even deeper. 

If you see a guy bending too much at his knees then he's not getting all that he can.  If you see him doing more of a pull then he's on to something (find a video of Sanford's 18 footer to see what I mean).  The timing of your pull can also be improved.  That will come with feel.

When I first started I was too weak (still am kind of). So I got stronger but I still sucked.  No matter how much I threw.  Then Sean showed me how to throw it right and I improved over a foot in like a week.  You'll feel it when it comes together just right.  It's like when you hit a baseball on the sweet spot or tackle a guy with perfect timing and you hear all of his wind go out and snot comes out of his nose.   

Tim,

That was well said on all counts, esp. the snot part.  Even more so when it is a QB!!!

Brainmasher,

One thing you have to keep in mind when asking such questions is that one's height and the length of one's levers make a very significant difference.  For example, if you take two athletes who both power clean, say, 275 lbs but one is 6'4" with long arms and the other one is 5'9" with short arms, the taller athlete will have a significant advantage in the WOB (and most, if not all, throwing events).  To some extent, this is simply because the taller athlete is, in fact, more powerful despite the fact that the same weight was lifted, as the weight travelled farther.  In addition, the taller athlete has superior leverage. 

It is no accident that most of the best guys in the WOB have been tall - e.g. Woult Zijlstra, Paul Ferency, and Ben Plunknett are (were) all very tall, and even Matt Sandford is about 6'5" (in addition to be extremely explosive). 

This is not to say you can't be very successful in the WOB as a six footer (note RV), but you have to be stronger and more explosive than the taller guys.  Just something to keep in mind.

Power is:

(Force x Distance)/Time

Strength can roughly be equated to force. There are three ways to improve power.

1. Increase strength (heavy off-season lifting)
2. Decrease time (O-lifts, sprints)
3. Increase distance

There are serious limits to improving the third element in WOB. If you are 5'11" with a 31" inseam (my stats) then you simply don't get to pull on the weight for very long before it leaves your hand. You have to focus on really reaching back to have any chance at increasing distance. A taller athlete has far more ability to increase distance and throw really high.

Incidentally it works exactly the other way in O-lifting where being shorter is a huge advantage because you don't have to lift the bar as high. Therefore, a 405 power clean by a guy who is 6'5" is far more impressive than the same feat by a guy who is 5'8".

All other things being equal, to throw 14' in WOB an athlete who is 5'11" would require much greater strength than one who is 6'5".

so as far as a training regiment, what has worked for people?  Have you ever improved right before the season/during the season with this (what ever that maybe)? From what I'm gathering, the time for real heavy lifting has almost passed, although it seems there is still a bit of a window, but at the same token, strength may not be my (and brainsmasher's) problem.  Especially for me, it has to be technique, so when i was practicing yesterday I came up with a few questions...

I know there as been a bit on wob timing, but in a nut shell, where you you aim for your release?

and when leg drive is discussed, what does that mean exactly?  Is that just referred to as the "jump" at the end or bringing your hips up or am I just missing it completely?

northsider wrote: and when leg drive is discussed, what does that mean exactly?  Is that just referred to as the "jump" at the end or bringing your hips up or am I just missing it completely?

I wouldn't focus to much on the "jump" because your not really trying to jump the weight up.  Also don't think of it as bring your hips up as much as your are bringing them through.  You want to be able to "pop" you hips foward and through.  Force them back as the weight goes back and them hammer them forward and through as you pull the weight.  In this way you will achieve a triple extention.  Triple i.e. Ankles + Knees + Hips = 3. Combine this with the timing factor (again) and you'll feel it.

Baab's on it though.  Word's, even good ones, can not show you what we are trying to describe.  Pictures good...video better!

so as far as a training regiment is concerned, what are people doing?  Twice a week seems to be agreed upon, but how about number of throws?  To the point of fatigue or less than that.  It seems apparent that the consensus is the only way to improve is to practice, but then what are the most common/successful practice methods? 

Also, I have a 70 and 42lb weight, any suggestions on when to use those, if at all?  I guess I'm looking for points of a workout especially because there is a little bit on other threads about time in the season. It seems to me that the 70 could have some definite benefits in the areas of timing and strength, after all its pretty hard to force that weight to do anything it doesn't want.

northsider wrote: so as far as a training regiment is concerned, what are people doing?  Twice a week seems to be agreed upon, but how about number of throws?  To the point of fatigue or less than that.  It seems apparent that the consensus is the only way to improve is to practice, but then what are the most common/successful practice methods?

I do 10 reps.  Since I do all events over the course of the week, height event day may or may not occur twice in the same week.  If you don't want to limit your reps to a number, then stop when you feel hostile.  Angry can be good for motivation, but hostile will detract your concentration. 

Raise the bar a little bit at a crack.  I do 3".  You can better analyze what you're doing when you have a smaller margin to evaluate in, and it helps keep you from being discouraged because you're more likely to experience success with a 3" jump v. a 12" jump.

Pull when that weight is between your toes.  Any earlier, and it'll ruin the attempt.  Remember to finish the pull over your head.  Quit too soon it'll go straight up & down.

I was getting discouraged with sucking & not reliably being able to hit 10', so I started practicing mid Aug.  By mid Sept., I was hitting 11' in practice (didn't get a mark until early Oct, though).

will barron wrote: if you still cannot clear 14' every time you try, I would go out and just toss the wob ALOT. Its heavy enough to count as lifting - you'll be tired I promise.

Playing devil's advocate...newbies (counting myself and others I have seen) seem to rarely get over 12'.  Saying go out and throw until you hit 14' could cause someone harm.  From what I hear from throwers...shoulders seem to get lots of surgery in this sport.

Since I am a newbie, I will be happy to hit 12' or so solid my first time out.  Sitting outside and throwing all day will just tear up my shoulder since my body (ligaments/supplemental muscles) still needs to grow into this sport.

Running now before the weights are thrown at me.

I didn't mean to suggest throwing for hours and hours until someone needs to call the ambulance...

just practice the ACTUAL throw often -like 2-3 nights a week for maybe 20-30 minutes - we you're spent, head to the DVD VCR NASGA video section and watch how its done...if you see something in the video that makes sense suddenly - go right back out and try it.

thats how I did it and look how high I've thrown in the stand... 

15'6 p.r. and lots of knocked off 16' bars...aint bad...with a 280 lb power clean, 400 squat, 190 snatch, 500 dead...i seem to love telling how weak i am

You cant actually learn how to throw wob in the weight room. snatching something with a handle is totally different if the handle doesn't swing

a great starting drill to understand how the hips generate the pull is to just start swinging the weight back and forth with a relaxed shoulder and learn how to get the swing going higher using your hips and lower back. Just pump it back and forth. as for going for the pull, relax your hips as the weight falls and literally dive the hips down in sort of a scoop. Reach as far back in the hole as you can and start lifting with the head/shoulders and core. Jump squat as the weight passes the knees - then let the arm keep flying up past your head.

yell just as you straighten up and let go.

will barron wrote: You cant actually learn how to throw wob in the weight room. snatching something with a handle is totally different if the handle doesn't swing

Will, I was throwing with the B group last year, and I still feel as though I should be despite a lot of training this winter. The statement you made above though makes me think. The 56 practice implement I have been using does not have a handle that swings. Did you mean the swing from the chain, or a handle that will swing with your throw. I am doing a good job explaining this...

The weight I have is just handle, attached to a stack of weights. When I was down at Don's a couple of weeks ago, I noticed his weights were more like competition.... Chains, D-ring handles with an outer grip that allows the weight to swing...

Are my "poor" weights causing my low heights?

Thanks,

Leroy

before I give my .02, I want to qualify (or lack there of) my advice.  I have only been throwing since Nov. 06 and I have cleared 12' a few times and hit a B field Record of 12'2" on Saturday.  I am only 5'10.5" with a not totally embarassing dl of 495 with just a belt (518 with a suit).

I throw all events every Saturday and lift thru the week.  On Saturdays we usaully end with WOB.  I start with the 56# and take probably 6-10 throws and then I will grab the 42# and keep going up for another 4-6 throws.  We also have a 75lb kettle bell that I have managed to clear 9' with.  The different weight all have different timing.  But the 42 teaches me to pull FAST and I have to pull HARD with the 75...hopefully making my 56# fast and hard!

I always throw the 56 the same way.  I get my heels right under the bar a little less than shoulder width apart (enough room to not clip my ankles with the weight...except that one time ).  The first swing I get the weight to about a 45* and then on second swing I get it to about 90* and then as the weight passes back I let it pull my arm as far back as possible and when it gets all the way back, I drop my hips (sit on the weight) then I drive my hips up and forward and I try to imagine my hips pushing my arm, which is pulling the weight.  At the same time I am rolling my shoulders back and looking up...then I just keep pulling to the top, and then release.  I don't jump but I do end up on my tip toes and get a good hard contraction in the calves when I get it right.

In the gym, I plan on doing more hang cleans as they feel most like the movement to me.

Not sure if that is worth anything to anybody, but it did give me a chance to talk about myself.

17/20 wrote: Try doing a Max snatch grip deadlift, with the back flat - this is a good indicator of your start strength as it relates to the Standing WT fr HT

Trying to answer my buddy's question, what, if any, are the thoughts about a max correlating to a height in the wob.  As in, would a 300lb snatch grip dead lift would be around 11 feet or so, or is this too weird of a question considering the height of the competitor as all ready discussed?

Also, excellent post UpChucker, just what I was looking for.  I really like what I'm getting from everybody so thank you all.  I am excited to start working on my form, especially the "sitting on the weight" part.  I really think that will help bring it all together.

I am eagerly awaiting the replies to northsiders question, and I've got one of my own as well so feel free to answer them as an unrelated package deal... I'm wondering if there is any benifit for a right hander to take some lefty throws as well (Just in the WOB of course... in other events this stratigy could get a bit hairy)  Would this be a beinificial way to improve coordination, timing, balance, and reduce any uneven muscle developement? 

Wayne Hill wrote: mcdonl wrote: Are my "poor" weights causing my low heights? No, but it's a good story. -Wayne

Damn.

Thanks Wayne!

BrainSmasher wrote: I am eagerly awaiting the replies to northsiders question, and I've got one of my own as well so feel free to answer them as an unrelated package deal... I'm wondering if there is any benifit for a right hander to take some lefty throws as well (Just in the WOB of course... in other events this stratigy could get a bit hairy)  Would this be a beinificial way to improve coordination, timing, balance, and reduce any uneven muscle developement?

I know Mike Baab is ambidexterous with the WOB and I have seen him thow all day as a righty then go lefty on the WOB.  You would think in training it would be beneficial for many reasons.        &nbs p;         &nbs p;

And do not worry about spell check...next thing is you have people griping about grammar.

Baab....if you are better now then 6 years ago in another six years you should hit 24' with the 56 from the stand....

I mentioned the training both sides for the arms because it would help you focus more on the hips.  I find when I do not focus on the hips the wt. goes off to the side and most of my weight is on the side from which I throw, instead of getting the hips involved and have the arm act as an extension of the hips- so I become upper body dominant and this is not good. 

Weasle...tsk tsk

Northsider , I should have anticpated this question. I have no clue . However, in my opinion the 300 needs to come way up. How much , I'm thinking close to 500.That's assuming you want your name to be on the Standing Wall of Fame. Just trying to get you motivated . Hey its one event dont beat your self up in the Wt. Room yr round and what ever you do , dont start spinning.

concerning throws with your non-primary arm for balance...My training partners/mentors went to Ryan Vierra's training camp and said his right side is like 3" larger than his left, so I wouldn't worry too much about being balanced left to right with your throws.

In the gym on the other hand, I try and stay as balanced as possible to help with injury prevention and trying not to look like a dysmorphic nut-job (no offense Mr. Vierra) .

strength versus technique.  If I had to chose one, I would prefer to have the strength cause you can learn technique a lot faster, gaining real strength can take YEARS!

see previous post for qualifications 

Ahhh, but with proper technique, you can overcome an opponent with CRS.  Witness some of the David & Goliath matchups when the Burchetts are around & you'll see what technique can do.

weaselking wrote: Ahhh, but with proper technique, you can overcome an opponent with CRS.  Witness some of the David & Goliath matchups when the Burchetts are around & you'll see what technique can do.

The Burchetts are stronger then many may think.  You cannot have technique without strength...from a neurological standpoint I would put them as one of the same.  We see this in many sports.  They are so quick and are more devoted to their training then most. 

I for one am hoping Mr. and Mrs. Burchett are done creating there highlanders.  It can suck when you have to wonder how many will be in your flight.  They go from teething to walking to beating the Springfield "Smack Division" in just a couple of years.

When you look at strength you are looking at the ability of motor units to fire in the correct pattern....this entails within in one muscle and with the correct coordination and aid of other muscles.(some aid and some do not restrict)  To put it in your terms this explains the superhuman strength Bruce Banner was looking for.  Yes there is chemical ( in our case endorphins and adrenaline) but there is also teh ability of our muscles to act (contract) at the correct intensity.  We for the most part do not have the ability to overide the circuits if you will and act 100%.  Only time a muscle will act 100% is at electrocution...the tension would be so great bones break usually as the muscles pull away from the bone.

If you train a deadlift you will get stronger in the deadlift and their will be some carrover to other things like our events but not 100% carryover.  Your muscles get wired to move effeciently to accomplish the task.  If you train with a 56 you get stronger with the 56 and in some cases you could have carryover to other things.  My point I believe would be shown if we saw them lift...I see the potential for good cleans though they may not have the technique.  I bet theu have amazing verticals and good sprint speed.

To make a long story short they have CRS if anyone does

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 It can suck when you have to wonder how many will be in your flight.  They go from teething to walking to beating the Springfield "Smack Division" in just a couple of years.

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http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4278&PN=1 - http://www.nasgaweb.com/forums/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=427 8&PN=1

There are 7 of their 8 throwing this weekend!!!!!!

The two youngest are throwing for the first time!!!!!

I'm in the only flight with out a Burchett in it!!!! 

Terry

weaselking wrote: I didn't mean to imply that they weren't strong, just that they probably weren't Bob, or you, or any of the others-who-think-strong-starts-with-a-500lb-power-clean strong.  Pure strength in this sport gives a false sense of accomplishment.  14' is 14' in WOB, but without the technique to get it over, it's no better than 50'.  Impressive as hell, but still a no score.  Strength augments technique, not the other way around.  If it were the other way around, then athletes wouldn't switch to maintenance workouts once the seasons kicks in.

I agree.  What I was saying if I had to chose, I would rather start with great strength and work on technique then the other way around....not that I have an abundance of either.

As far as the maintenance workouts... I still don't understand that!  Why spend an hour in the gym not losing what you got, when you can spend an hour in the gym trying to get stronger.  Now if you are walking the fine line of overtraining and you have to back off the gym or the throws then I understand backing off the gym (taking time away from the gym, but not effort)

Of course this is all speculation from a newbie...

Training hard is hard on you.  Some of us older folk need a little more recovery time and can't afford to bust ourselves up so frequently.  Truth be told, tho, I have idea what I'm talking about in the weight room.

"My training partners/mentors went to Ryan Vierra's training camp and said his right side is like 3" larger than his left..."

That's why everyone should throw the sheaf!  It provides balance to your body.

weaselking wrote: Training hard is hard on you.  Some of us older folk need a little more recovery time and can't afford to bust ourselves up so frequently.  Truth be told, tho, I have idea what I'm talking about in the weight room.

I agree, but throwing is like active recovery from the weight room  You can slowly increase your work load so your body can handle both.  But you have to learn to listen to your body and back off when it tells you to or something bad will happen.

_____________________________________________________

I love the sheaf! The sheaf is my strongest event! 

                   LONG LIVE THE SHEAF!!!