I know some of this has been discussed in pieces, but...

Since most of our throwing is done from a semi-crouched position any thoughts on hang vs power clean/snatch as being superior to one another in terms of throwing?

Yes...yes, I know that they all have their place.  But should one concentrate on one over the other?

As you said, they both have their place, but ultimately I think it depends on (i) your abilities, both technical and physical and (ii) whether you are talking off-season or pre-season/in-season. 

At least some lifts off the ground are important for the development of back and hamstring strength that you won't get to the same degree with the hang lifts.  But for the same reason, the hang lifts can be easier on your back, potentially allowing you to throw harder with less rest.  In addition, I would say the hang lifts are more specific to throwing and would therefore employ them more often during the pre-season or competitive periods.  This is particularly true with the hang snatch, which is a pure power movement, is much easier technically than the full power snatch, and avoids the extreme starting position and somewhat difficult transition phase from first pull to second pull.  For what (little) it's worth, I typically employ the hang power snatch and the full power clean, as I feel this gives me the best of both worlds.

I would be interested to hear what others will some experience in this area have to say on this point.

will barron wrote: SDL stands for?  snatch grip deadlifts?

This would be Stiff-legged Dead Lifts, would it not?

Stiff-legged deads is correct sir! Also known, at least to me, as romanian deads. How many Romanians does it take to lift a dead guy anyway?

david barron wrote: Stiff-legged deads is correct sir! Also known, at least to me, as romanian deads.

If only for the purpose of clear communication, I think it is important to distinguish between the standard Stiff-legged Deadlift, which is usually either done with the weight lowered down to the floor or even down to one's instep, and the RDL, which is a somewhat different movement always done with a completely straight or even arched back, basically sticking your but back as far as possible, with the bar lowered down to somewhere between the tops of your knees and the middle of your shins.  Although I think the true RDL is somewhat more applicable to the WOB etc., both will work your hamstrings and low-back well, and certainly one of these movements should be included in your program if you are not regularly doing deep squats and some kind of pull from the ground.

Related question - for the people with experience doing both RDLs and Snatch Grip Deadlifts, which do you prefer, and why?  If you employ them both from time to time, do you use them at different times of the year or combine them with different excercises, or what?

Carlos,

With respect to the speed deadlifts (which I take to mean 6-10 singles at about 60% of 1RM with 30-45 seconds rest between sets), would this recommendation still hold if you are already doing hang snatches, power cleans and possibly other dynamic pulls?  And would the speed deads really be a substitute for any of the other slower-tempo deadlift variations mentioned? 

This may not have been your point, but I am curious if you are suggesting speed deadlifts for those who don't or can't do the Oly variants or if you are suggesting they be included along with the Oly variants but instead of other types of deads.

Thanks in advance.

Peter.

Peter,

  Actually, I'm talking about a variant that Louie used to push years ago (haven't heard about it lately so maybe he's dropped it). One warning, you can really hurt yourself doing these if you don't exercise some discretion in your loading.

  Load a barbell and bring it to the top of the DL position. Now, starting from the top you basically let the barbell free-fall to just below the knees, at that point you slam it back up DL style (this is NOT supposed to be a clean pull) and then right back to free-fall for the next rep, etc. You want to do a very light weight and you should be going 15 reps or better. When you get the groove going it is very rhythmic.

  I used to do these a lot when I was training PL many years ago. To give you an idea on loading I could easily pull 550 any day of the week back then and I never went above 185 on these (and generally used less). The benefit for WOB is that they build the reversal strength that you need when the implement bottoms as it comes down and forward.

Carlos,

Thank you for the response.  I am glad I specified what I understood "speed deadlifts" to be!  Are these done with stiff, slightly bent knees, or what?  I have not heard of this variation, but I am far from a Westside expert.  In any case, what you propose makes more sense, although I am still unclear about the advantage of doing these as opposed to hang cleans or hang high pulls, which also build reversal strength very well.  Am I missing something, or is this movement intended for those who would rather stick to deadlifting variants?

Peter.

Peter,

  The benefit is that it takes the trap shrug and drive onto the toes out of the equation. You just focus on P-chain reversal strength. Just another tool for the toolbox. I personally focus on snatch hi-pulls (floor, hang, different heights, mix it up) but these are good for a change once in a while. Everything works, nothing works forever.

Gotcha.

Borges wrote: Everything works, nothing works forever.

Words to train by.

UpChucker wrote: Ever try bent leg Good Mornings?  I like to do those after my back squats and they tear up my hammies more than any DL varation I have tried (SLDL hits my lower back more than my hammies)

Yeah I like Oly style GMs. 

Don,

  You don't get a big burn out of them because the movement is short. My sense is this:

• Movements that involve a lot of work (force times distance) tend to lead to a big burn. For instance, 315 in a snatch grip DL off a bumper plate is a LONG movement for a long time and hence a lot of work.
• Movements that involve a lot of power (work divided by time) tend not to lead to much of a burn. The fast high rep DL has you pulling for about 6 inches hence low work, but you have to really slam it so very very low time.

It probably all goes back to that time under tension thing. I would think the advantage for someone like you is that it would help you improve your reversal speed (you already have more raw back power than any human really needs). I would not go any heavier because I think the risk of injury is too high (compared to the possible benefits).

Thanks Carlos- great insight. Dave Tate suggested them at the last Elite/ Westside Seminar. Just not a fan of short movements, but the fast reversal aspect of the movement is tremendous. The next 3 week cycle I do 2 sets of 20 @ 315.

My new T-SHIRT " More Raw Back Power Than A Human Needs" -17/20. You'll get your finders fee $$$.  

17/20 wrote:  " More Raw Back Power Than A Human Needs"

Then share some of that crazy shizit with a Ceramic spine like me!!!!!!!!!

Borges wrote:  Actually, I'm talking about a variant that Louie used to push years ago (haven't heard about it lately so maybe he's dropped it). One warning, you can really hurt yourself doing these if you don't exercise some discretion in your loading.

Carlos,

They call them Dimel Deads named after the late Matt Dimel.  I think Matt and others usually only used 135-185 lbs to do these.  They were done with quickness for reversal strength (amongst other things).  Almost a plyometric movement but for 20 reps.