I would like to know the difference between the front squat and the back squat ,, and how they help you throw for which event ??  Can anyone explain that for me .. please !

Thanks , Bret

My personal thoughts on the issue of front squats vs. back squats:

When I was throwing shot and discus years ago under 2 different National coaches (one of whom was a former Canadian Champ with many years of experience and the other was a former Polish National coach who had a Ph.D in sport studies), we always did Olympic-style back squats.  The depth depended a lot on the individual, how heavy the weight was, and the time of year, but most of the guys typically went about an inch or two below parallel (except for those with really long legs).  We almost never did front squats, and that was also the case for most of the elite throwers I met or heard about.  If you look at the training programs of most of the Europeans (at least from 10-20 years ago) you will see they focussed on the back squat.

However, I believe Front Squats have increased in popularity since that time.  Certainly many hammer throwers utilize fronts a lot and I believe a number of spin shot putters have found them to be very useful as well.  Front squats are also very popular with HG athletes, largely because of their superior transfer to the WOB, hammers, and probably caber.  They are generally considered to be a more pure test of leg strength.

In terms of the movements themselves, the back squat utilizes the hips and low back more (a lot more if the power squat syle is used, which I wouldn't) while the front squat hits the quads in particular as well as the mid-back more.  The back squat obviously allows you to use more weight, which can be a good thing, and holding the weight is a non-issue.  Having said this, with some practice and experience, holding the weight properly in the front squat eventually becomes a non-issue too, at least for reps up to 5.  Reps over 5 are not recommended in the front squat. 

With respect to depth, it is very important to go at least below parallel in the front squat, whereas you have more options with the back squat, depending on your abilities, your specific goals, and the time of year.  My philosophy is the lower the better early in the year, but perhaps changing to parallel squats or sometimes even 90 degree knee-angle "half squats" close to or in season.  Personally, I think you should usually be going as low as possible in your fronts, as this really works the VMO muscle (the teardrop muscle above your knee) which is very important for knee stability and jumping but is often underdeveloped.  Deep squats also ensure the hamstrings are developed in conjunction with the quads.

If you have the time, energy, and recuperation abilities to do two squat workouts a week, a good plan is to do back squats one day (generally to parallel or below) and front squats the other.  If you want to include a dynamic day (but without a box) do fronts on this day.  Box squats are often discouraged for athletes other than powerlifters, although that is certainly not a universal opinion.

Although none of the throwers I knew, spoke with, or read about ever really did deadlifts (focussing instead on some combination of power cleans, high pulls, and power snatches in addition to heavy squats), for those who do employ full deadlifts, front squats might be better since they utilize your low back and hips less, areas that are hit very hard by heavy deads.

Silverback wrote: I tend to try and do what I am weakest at or what is harder.  Fronts seem much harder than backs to me.  Not sure if that is some kind of self hate, or a theory I have heard of?

“What does not kill me makes me stronger.”

                  - Goethe

I haven't back squatted since 1997, but it's not because i dont want to. 

Myles got me started front squatting last year, was just a new refreshed lift for me.  I like to have fun in the gym. 

I'm really a "despecialist" in the gym with reagrds to throwing.  I use the gym to get strong.  everwhere.  everyway.  I use the field to throw farther.  YMMV.

Variety is the spice of life. I mostly do fronts for two reasons. First, they allow me to reduce the load on my 45 year old back and knees yet still build leg power. Second, I believe they have a better carryover to the throws (with the exception of glide shotputting).

That said I also work in Zerchers, overheads, Bulgarian splits, backs, jumps, and all kind of other squats. I generally keep to lower reps but I even mess around with that a bit.

Hey Baab - Here's a new workout for you to try if you are looking for some serious soreness:

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=49920&tid=53 - http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=49920&tid=53

M-BAAB wrote:   Fronts, pushpress and hi pulls/cleans/snatches variations should be our core exercises.

Here is my favorite basic workout for HG training, especially when I am time-constrained and want to avoid overtraining.  Baab can just add both routines together and do them in the same workout!!!  However, please note that I do a fair number of sets for the first two exercises each day and take them pretty seriously. 

Do three workouts a week on alternate days and just alternate the workouts, resulting in each movement being done 3 times over the course of 2 weeks.  Very simple and very flexible.  Sets and reps and even the entire routine itself obviously varies (every 3-4 weeks to at least some extent), but this is a favourite example.  If time or energy is an issue on any given day, the last one or two exercises are skipped.

Day 1

1) Hang Power Snatches

2) ATG Front Squats

3) Seated d-bell presses OR low-incline d-bell incline presses

4) some type of ab exercise

Day 2

1) Power Cleans (or High Pulls) from the floor

2) Push Presses from a rack

3) some type of rotator cuff exercise, eg. seated d-bell external rotations

4) some type of plate twist etc.

Comments welcome.

I like it - how many sets/reps on the 2 core lifts ?

M-BAAB wrote: I like it - how many sets/reps on the 2 core lifts ?

As I said, it depends, but something like this, depending on the exercise and the week and the month:

For Push Presses and often for Squats (front or back) or Pulls try:

- easy inital warmup, then 5-6 sets of 3-5 reps, either increasing the weight each set, or increasing for 2-3 sets and then doing the same weight for 3 hard sets.  For hang snatches, cleans, and sometimes for squats or pulls try:

- an easy initial warmup then a double or triple wave series, e.g. 5,3,1, 5,3,1, 5,3,1 increasing the weight used each wave and then back down to the weight initially used for 3 reps for the next 5 rep set, etc, etc.  Depending on the movement and how I feel, the 3rd wave might simply be a repeat of the second wave, or I might do 1 or 2 heavier singles after the second wave and not do a third wave (but not with squats).  After my final single, I will usually go back and repeat the final set of 5.  If you are doing 3 increasing waves, only the 3rd wave should be very hard!!!

A triple wave of either 6,1, 6,1, 6,1, 6 or 5,2, 5,2, 5,2, 5 also works well and requires fewer weight changes and may often be more practical.

Clear as mud?

will barron wrote: whats an ATG front squat

Sorry,

ATG = Ass To Ground

Very good for VMO and hamstring development.  Requires reasonable/good flexibility and results in somewhat lighter weight being used, but that's okay.  Below parallel is fine, much easier, allows more weight to be used.

Okay ! So now that we know that we have to do front squats . How much should a guy 45 yrs old that can back squat close to 600lbs , be able or should do for front squats ??

And what are push presses ? Where I live there aren't a lot of gyms - let alone fancy ones with a lot of equipment ,, so I improvise a bit on lifts .

Thanks ,, Bret

Oh !! And what are hang power snatches ??

Thanks for all the help ,

Bret

Bret,

Once you learn how to do fronts properly and get comfortable with them you should be doing about 80% of your back squat weight to the same depth, which in your case would be around 475 or so, which is excellent.

Push presses are basically military presses that begin with an explosive leg drive - basically they start like a jerk and end like a military press.  Make sure you don't lean back too much or you might hurt your back!

Hang power snatches are (i) snatches caught in, say, a quarter squat position or even with minimal knee bend (ii) doing snatches (or cleans) from a hang means deadlifting it off the floor initially (just once) and then dropping the bar down to anywhere from your mid-thigh (a high hang) to somewhere below your knees (a low hang).  Generally these are done by dropping the bar down to 2-3 inches above your knees and then exploding up.  Although these certainly involve some technique, doing them from a hang is much less complicated than from the floor.

Go to crossfit.com and select "Exercises" for videos and detailed instructions on many different lifts, including all of those discussed here along with other variations.  This is a very useful resource, although the general crossfit training philosophy is not applicable to throwers (but rather soldiers, firefighters, wrestlers, MMA guys, etc.).

Good luck.  You obviously have a good strength base to work from.

Thanks guys ! This all helps ,,

Bret

M-BAAB wrote: It's better to do 5-10 reps w. 50-70% as explosively (fastest possible reverse out of the bottom and finish up on toes)as possible than to do a slow grinding double w. 90%..

I also strongly agree with this, at least during the preseason and even once a week offseason if you are squatting twice a week.  The only thing I would say is that IMHO your reps for these should be in the 2-6 range, given that the point is to maximize your explosiveness. Do enough sets to get 20-25 reps in total.  You probably won't need more than 60-90 seconds rest between sets.  Keep in mind that this format is usually only used with squats, benches, and deadlifts, not cleans and snatches.

Another similar option, usually reserved for late pre-season or in-season use, is to take about 50% of your 1RM and do as many reps as you can in 10 seconds for a few sets.  Just make sure you maintain good form, as it's easy to get sloppy when pushing the pace like this.

As a thrower, while it is necessary to be reasonably strong, and very good to be very strong, it is also VERY important to be fast and explosive (unless you are very, very strong). 

Peter Ingleton wrote: As a thrower, while it is necessary to be reasonably strong, and very good to be very strong, it is also VERY important to be fast and explosive (unless you are very, very strong).

While that may be true, proper positioning and throwing technique is essential. If you do not hit something resembling a power position, no level of strength will help you. Remeber why you are lifting.

Eclipse wrote: proper positioning and throwing technique is essential. If you do not hit something resembling a power position, no level of strength will help you. Remember why you are lifting.

I could not agree more, and usually include this caveat in my remarks but didn't feel it was necessary given the context of the post.  But you are absolutely correct, probably to a greater degree than most people realize.  For example, it is clear that a large percentage of those who are active members of this board have at least the basic strength required to throw over 50' in the open stone, if not over 55' or even much further in a few cases. 

And while I do not think anyone would disagree with my statement quoted above, it is a fact that once a fairly basic level of strength has been achieved, nothing will improve one's throwing results more dramatically than (i) improving one's technique and (ii) improving the speed at which one can complete one's throws while maintaining the proper technique.  Of course, that is easier said than done, especially if you have limited training in the proper technique, no coach or only limited and/or occassional coaching, etc. etc.  But any time and energy spent learning the proper techniques for each event (e.g. using videos and/or getting coaching) and analyzing and practicing your own technique is time very well spent.  As Eclipse says, "if you do not hit something resembling a power position, no level of strength will help you", or, more accurately, much of your power will simply be wasted.

The point of remembering why you are lifting is also important, and this has been the essence of several of my posts.  Powerlifting and obviously bodybulding are very different disciplines than throwing, and the training methods suitable for one are not necessarily suitable for the others.  This should be kept in mind if you are lifting specifically to improve your throwing.  Of course, you may have additional goals with respect to your lifting workouts, which will affect the routines or methods you employ.