Will,

  I think the young lady who lost first place to her at Pleasanton in September might care. There is both prize money and prestige involved.

Will,

  Rule #20 from the NASGA website (emphasis added by me):

"Drug testing of any competitors is left to the discretion and capabilities of each Games being competed in. If a competitor is banned/suspended as a result of a drug test he will not be allowed to compete until the ban/suspension is over. Bans/suspensions from other sports will be enforced. Competitors banned/suspended from another sport will not be allowed to compete in a Games. "

Gallagher, i say go for it   If that's all it takes....

Besides, you already are a legend.

I still don't care, nothing will change the processes of what we do, whether there is 1 positve test or 100.  I guarantee you though, when i get beat on the field, that is one excuse you'll NEVER hear me utter about someone else.  I guess it bothers me that people always want to make excuses, always want a scapegoat.  When i get beat, it's because I didn't work hard enough.  I didn't train hard enough.  I didn't practice enough.  It's never, well Johnny Joe Nothing did this and this and this....geez....   

Craig,

  I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone is making excuses. This is about a failed drug test. There is supposed to be a consequence for a failed drug test. Simple as that.

Perhaps I was jumping the gun with my response, but you know what was coming   And that consequence is evident.  She is banned from weightlifting and doesn't even compete in HG anymore.  Also, because she was + in May, does not necesasrily mean she was in Setptember (yes, i realize the technicality of this statement).

I just don't see how one can deduce that the "confidence" is now gone from the womens class, and it will take 2-3 years to rebuild that.  The amatuer positive from Pleasanton a few years back didn't take any "confidence" out of the amatuer class.  And believe me, all the top Am's knew about it.

This kind of stuff happens all the time in sports, and 5 mintues later it's gone...

Borges wrote: Will,   I think the young lady who lost first place to her at Pleasanton in September might care. There is both prize money and prestige involved.

Well said Carlos, I don't think people fully realize the impact cheaters have on their sport.  If you have ever taken illegal performance enhancing drugs you have cheated.  The "2nd place lady" at Pleasanton actually won that comp but was deprived of the ability to enjoy her victory that day by someone who cheated.  It's a shame.

Greg,

  The USADA put out the press release. Not anyone here. It even made the local papers here in California.

Adam,

  You are correct. When I wrote my rule set they were INTENTIONALLY written to only govern the conduct of the events. Drug testing, classes, record keeping, etc. were all left to the individual organizations. Technically, even NASGA rule 20 doesn't apply because it is gender specific to males. On the other hand, trying to avoid doing the right thing because of a technicality would only do more harm.

Everyone,

  As far as guilt is concerned, no one gets banned for using illegal substances, you get banned for failing a drug test. It seems a minor detail but is in fact very important here because there is no point in arguing about whether or not she was using, only if she failed the drug test.

She did not test positive for steroids

She tested positive for steroid metabolites

There is a difference

agm_ wrote: Certain people's motivations may be open to question - I don't know about that. Personally, I wish nothing but the best for Shannon. But this does potentially impact the outcome of the U.S. Women's National Championships, so it's a legitimate subject of discussion.

I'll echo Adam's sentiments here. I've known Shannon for a number of years and hold her in high regard. I can tell you that as a field judge the only athlete who is more pleasant to work with is the legendary John Ross. I don't think it is proper for anyone to put her down or toss around a lot of allegations. She has done more for the women's games than anyone else and deserves a load of respect for that.

On the other hand, as Adam notes, there is a legitimate question of fairness to Mindy Lincoln as concerns the outcome at Pleasanton. I hope that the CCSF will address this in a timely manner (clearly it would be irresponsible of them to respond without first talking to those involved and learning all the facts).

Ok, just for us running a Highland games and wont to know. How much is drug testing per athlete? What are the names of the approved labs, for field sports and how are they contacted

The Scottish Coalition is composed of eight national organizations serving the Scottish-American community, principally through research, long-term planning, and as a resource for information and guidance. Its shared vision is that fruitful and mutually supportive relationships can be forged between individuals and organizations in the United States and in Scotland, in order to assure that the unique Scottish identity and heritage shall become better known and more widely celebrated for the benefit of peoples throughout the world.

The Association of Scottish Games and Festivals, was founded in 1981 in a spirit of cooperation, the Association of Scottish Games and Festivals (ASGF) provides its member organizations with a clearinghouse of ideas, resources, and information to assist them in the production of Highland Games. Like the member organizations them selves, ASGF sprouted from the vision of a few and fed by the truly continental in scope. ASGF is committed to the fundamental purpose of cooperation for the betterment of each of its members through sharing experiences and providing counsel. Additionally, the ASGF provides a forum for representatives of other Scottish cultural societies. At each meeting, outside representatives from Scottish groups such as the Pipe Band Association, Scottish Clans Societies, Highland Dancing people, Tartan and Genealogy experts, Heavy Athletics, and others are invited to participate by exchanging information and cooperating to solve problems or to create opportunities for improvement. Its annual meeting alternates from East to West for the convenience of its widespread membership. The Presidency of the ASGF likewise rotates biennially from East to West. Location and date of each annual meeting is set by the Executive Board. Every member Games is strongly encouraged to underwrite the cost of sending a representative to the annual meeting as a proven, worthwhile investment in the future of their event. All member organizations must have as their general purpose the furthering of the culture, heritage, and traditions of Scotland. To this end, they must present a Scottish games or festival that includes some aspects of Scottish culture, heritage, of traditions through offering competitions or demonstrations. Membership in the ASGF is necessary in order to qualify for the ASGF liability insurance program.

Sgt Richard A Jackson

9317 West Bluemound Road

Milwaukee, WI 53226

H: 414-258-5397

mailto:WisconsinSCOTTISH@msn.com - WisconsinSCOTTISH@msn.com

http://www.wisconsinscottish.org/ - www.WisconsinSCOTTISH.org

That's rather unfortunate about Shannon.  I've been honored to meet her twice and both times she was a class act, even nicer than a lot of people in the games.  I had heard some bad things about her in the past, and I first had a negative vibe towards her in the beginning, but it all changed once I finally got to meet with her face to face.  Plus, I'd rather base my judgement on her from personal experinces. 

Sure I don't know her like some of the folks out west and others who have thrown with her a lot more, but I felt I would give my opinion(since everyone and their mother is now) cause I did get a chance to talk/hang/relax with her for a short while.  No, I'm not trying to kiss her a$$ cause she was a superior thrower than most, but I still think highly of her personally.  She was cool to be around with, the 4 days I was in the games with her.  Hell, everybodies got some sort of "dirty laundry".  Sometimes though, it gets out into the public.  It sucks, it really does.

As for her athletic endeavors...

I know people are going to use this as a vehicle for a stronger alliance between the many different organizations in the games and drug testing.  Everyone knows my thoughts on those two subjects, so I won't waste their time again. 

dwood is correct. There is some science behind the false positives for nandrolone. Never heard of any scientific evidence backing a false positive for Winstrol. Besides, as Adam points out, it doesn't matter how it got in to your system. If you test positive then you are banned. Intentions are immaterial.

Was talking to a fellow pro today and we both had the same thought....did any one out there really think Shannon was clean?

I mean I always just assumed she was on drugs.  I didnt care,but I just figured she was.

Why is everyone shocked by this?

Lesson for all you folks out there with over the top test levels...stay away from weight lifting...they actually test people and will screw you if you test positive...what a novel idea.

Nice UHF quote Coach Mac.

Is this test result really a big surprise to anyone?  Every games I've been to where her name comes up someone brings up steroids in the conversation.

15 years ago there was a protein powder called "Hot stuff" and people were coming up positive.

You know if the games and the people in the games treated me with the same disrespect over the last 15 years that you have welcomed Shannon with, why would I want to spend about 20 G to prove anything to anyone of you.

One thing that can not be overstressed here is that the athlete is 100% responsible for everything that goes into his or her body. Whether you are intentionally taking steroids, are the victim of tainted supplements, or accidentally trip in the shower and land on a syringe full of Winstrol is immaterial. Anyone remember the guy who claimed his ex-girlfriend contaminated his toothpaste?

I make no assumptions as to intention when there is a positive test because it is beside the point.

Carlos is dead on. The responsibility is on the athlete.

"there was a protein powder called "Hot stuff" and people were coming up positive"

Not for steroids though, for ephedrine, IIRC.

All I read is pettiness and jealousy, the greeneyed monster that mocks the person it feeds upon.  90% of us could not even keep up with the workout routines Shannon follows.  Not 10% of us have had the success she has had over the years in as many sports as she has competed.  The first post stated a female, and no names were  given.  So. logically, the entire thread is based upon emotion and one-up-manship.  The short answer is, if you have nothing good to say, shut up.  If you have that strong of a desire to durg  test, then get the   game orgnizations to arrange for it, and include the cost in the application fee to  compete.  That will end the problem.  Of course, your games  fees will  rise to about 50 dollars, but within three years or less, the "cheaters" will be gone.  As for Shannon, she's better than most of us, and that is a fact.  She's retired from the games, and none of our pettiness is going to dull her sunlight. But such brutishness does reflect upon those seeking to raise themselves upon the bones of others. 

Again. you really want to test -- then shut up and pay the price of the test and test at the games.  Otherwise you're just pissing in the wind and complaining about someone peeing on your shins.  Greg Hadley is right, back off the names when you really don't have one.

Hey Rich,

  I wonder how you would feel if thrower X had come out to Pleasanton earlier this year and thoroughly defeated Shannon in every event. Several months later thrower X gets banned by the USAWA for failing a properly administered and validated (A and B samples test positive, chain of custody verified, etc.) test that was taken several months prior to Pleasanton. I dare say that the uproar to get thrower X banned and Shannon reinstated as Pleasanton champion would be pretty loud from certain people. I bet you'd be one of them, I know I would be. The difference is, I apply the same standard uniformly.

Richard Doria wrote: 90% of us could not even keep up with the workout routines Shannon follows.

This just shows that most people have no idea what steroids will do for an athlete.  Of course 90% can't, they are likely not on the drugs! (Thankfully)  Apparently a lot of people do not undertand what an androgenic effect is.  In all honesty, I do hope that somehow Shannon's test is a false positive, I really do.  I just hate to see people dismiss the unfair advantage these drugs provide.

What a crock of shit. You are the master of your own destiny. No one can make you take roids/supplements etc. The atheletes are responsible for what goes into their body, NO ONE ELSE!!!!! You make a choice to cheat or stay clean. Don't make BS excuses like my supps were tainted read the frigging labels. At the end of the day who give a fat rats arse about about excuses, stay clean or get out!!!

Pat

  I guess u are right Mac...they can do whatever sport they want as long as they are attractive ,naked and the sport is played in jello.

Otherwise stick with cooking and cleaning.

The bulk of this thread is pure detritus.

A law is only as good as the commitment to enforce it. Thus, the entire issue of doping is irrelevant if drug testing never occurs and if the rules regarding it are not enforced.

Query: Do the NASGA Rules even govern Pleasanton (or any other California Games)? The "sanctioning body" was Scottish Heavy Athletics, whose posted rules do not contain drug testing language. Pleasanton competitors are required to sign a drug testing waiver, but it concerns testing for that particular Games (which have not actually been conducted in years) and makes no mention of positive results, bans, or otherwise from other Games or organizations.

The purported ban did not take effect until recently. The NASGA Rules make no mention about retroactivity.

I am not an advocate for the use of banned substances, however, I am an advocate for fairness. Fairness in competition and fairness in the enforcement of the applicable rules.  It would be great if this sport actually did drug testing, but the risks of lititgation (and costs therefrom) seemed to have quashed that notion.  Until the rules actually provide a remedy and until said rules are enforced, it really is all irrelevant. 

Fokker Out.

Big Mac you crack me up big time brother.

I heard that your coach also gave birth to 2 kids woithout drugs as well and made it to the Olympics and world champs and commonwealth games. All this without drugs. Now that is impressive. Who shaved who and wore what?????? I hope you don't wear a G????

Pat

CRASH wrote:  Until the rules actually provide a remedy and until said rules are enforced, it really is all irrelevant.

Just because we don't have rules, doesn't mean we shouldn't have standards.

Pat Hellier,

  Damn straight! It gets even weaker when you claim your cortisone shot was contaminated.  The real peak is when you know that you tested positive BEFORE Pleasanton yet you still go, cheat the rightful winner out of her victory, then stand on the stage and let people heap praise on you. Shame!

Just to water this plant and keep it alive, suppose one doesn't feel they're doing anything wrong by "enhancing".  How would any of this make one change their mind, feel that they cheated the rightful winner or feel shame?

In my humble opinion, many who do enhance their performance honestly believe what they are doing isn't wrong, hurts no one, and those factual test results about what these "enhancments" do, only happen to others.  Don't get me wrong, I'm AGAINST any sort of performance enhancements, well, with the exception of Starbucks!

Al,

  You are probably dead on about the 'mind of the cheater'. Those self-centered egomaniacs don't care about anyone or anything else.

  And yes, we must keep watering this thread until someone from the CCSF shows enough sack to at least make a post acknowledging that they are aware of the situation and are working to resolve it.

Now would be a great time to clarify the rules, amend the rules, and, hopefully, actually apply the rules. 

My prior post was only meant to show the loopholes in the existing rules and the futility of complaining about it and making allegations.  On this board, the issue of steroids/banned substances is always a hot one and most members are really against it -- but the end result is always the same -- there are still no remedies and no resolution of the loopholes. This is a great sport with a lot of hardworking and honest athletes (and organizers).  Unfortunately, there are some who think that they can cheat the system (and, therefore, the athletes, sponsors, fans,  . . .) because they know the rules are not applied.  

So, shouldn't we be working together to fix what is broken?

agm_ wrote: Tossing around a word like "cheater" is not - yet - appropriate. All we know is that Shannon failed a drug test, and that she claims she didn't knowingly take drugs.

We also know that she was informed of her positive test BEFORE Pleasanton (I just figured this out yesterday night) yet still opted to compete thus CHEATING Mindy out of her chance to stand on the podium. That is the reason I have begun to use the word CHEATER. Because I think it fits here. I would note that before realizing this fact I had defended her in this thread.

agm_ wrote: As far as CCSF is concerned, do we even know that they are aware of it? Has anyone given them a copy of that press release?

Several of us has repeatedly asked for someone from the CCSF to at least post that they are aware of what is going on and are investigating. At least one CCSF member (Kel) has posted to this thread so he is certainly aware of it. I would like to believe that Steve Conway is also aware of it and following up on it but his silence leaves us all wondering. It doesn't seem like much to ask that he at least post that he is aware of the situation and is looking into it.

I don't know Shannon very well, met her a few times over the years at games, so I'm not pointing this DIRECTLY at her, but...

AGM, you say we can't toss around words like "cheaters"?  How about this:

You and I are running a marathon (I know, VERY unlikely :)) and you're doing it the old fashioned way...actually running.  I, on the other hand, decide half way through the race to grab a skate board.  Am I a cheater?  In my opinion, a cheater is defined as someone who (knowingly) does something to give them an UNFAIR advantage over the majority of competitors.  Taking performance enhancing substances would pretty much constitute an unfair advantage and I don't believe for one moment that ANYONE can say they didn't know they took it.  Come on now.  OF course that's going to be the knee jerk response by those caught: Hey, I didn't know I took that, or someone must have substituted winstrol for my badger milk fitness suppliment. 

So yes, I feel pretty ok about using the word cheater when referring to ANYONE who uses.  And to anyone who thinks that I would not hold my opinion or feelings about this subject to anyone face to face...you're wrong. I'm not a two face.  I feel very strongly about this topic (as well as those who smoke, but that's a different thread).

Just my 2cents on the topic.---Al  

Adam,

  There are doping guidelines about notification. You have six months from the time you are notified to file an appeal before you get banned. She got banned on November 9 after her six month appeal period ended. You do the math.

Indeed, she almost certainly knew that both her A and B samples tested positive before Pleasanton. So yes - CHEATER!!!!!

The really interesting question is whether or not Steve Conway knew about this before Pleasanton.

AGM, I understand what you are saying.  I think we're all a little too heated and are not really reading one another's posts.  You're not actually saying no one did anything wrong, you're saying let the accused speak in their defense.

Yes, in this country we do do it that way.  However it is also human nature to say if it smells like shi#, tastes like shi#, then it must be shi#...call it what you will, it's hard to make a defense case in matters like that.  If the person in question wasn't huge for their gender, better than just about all other in their gender, in fact a lot of guys for that matter, then I doubt there would be a debate.  The question isn't shall we just forget it and assume she was "set up", but how long has this been going on and who all has it affected?

I don't know what the CCSF is going to Say nor can I speak for Steve, however I will do what ever I can with in my power to make sure that they do not address anyone from this site with any kind of comment. I don't think anyone of you represent any kind of organized highland games sactioning body that governs the CCSF. I truely feel that anything said to you people will be either to late in coming or not enough info, which will cause you to go on and on with speculation about this issue. Your all intitled to your opinions and to carry on the way you are. Regardless of what has taken place, first and formost Shannon is a close friend of mine and I will support her as a close friend would. If you have a personal problem with that I'm sorry.

Isn't there a term, "No contest" used when one determines that they cannot really get a fair hearing, but they admit to nothing.  Seems to me that is the course being taken.  I am amused at all the big bad, rough tough boys beating up the girl, just because she's better than you.  Cry babies.

The Highlander wrote: However it is also human nature to say if it smells like shi#, tastes like shi#, then it must be shi#...

For the record, in AZ the saying goes *looks* like X and smells like X, then it must be X.  Al threw in the "taste" part all on his own.

Richard Doria wrote:  I am amused at all the big bad, rough tough boys beating up the girl, just because she's better than you.

Rich,

  I am amazed at your ability to decipher other peoples motives as you do in the statement above. Even I didn't know why I was doing it until you told me. Yet, according to you, not one other person on this board has any ability to infer anything about Shannon's motives. Must be awesome to have your godlike powers. Can you turn water into wine?

Louis Cypher wrote: I don't know what the CCSF is going to Say nor can I speak for Steve, however I will do what ever I can with in my power to make sure that they do not address anyone from this site with any kind of comment.

It's good to have a purpose in life.

jimhoerricks wrote:  The bottom line in Kel's post is two-fold. 1. Shannon adds to their gate by putting more butts out there to see her because she can throw very far. 2. She's a friend of theirs and you won't see them slamming her in public. Any resolution (either way) is going to very quiet, if at all.

When you're right, you're right. Now, just imagine what would have happened if Gar Macilvaine had been in the same situation as Shannon. The CCSF would have banned him before the ink dried on the USADA press release.

Richard Doria wrote: Isn't there a term, "No contest" used when one determines that they cannot really get a fair hearing, but they admit to nothing.  Seems to me that is the course being taken.  I am amused at all the big bad, rough tough boys beating up the girl, just because she's better than you.  Cry babies.

I am changing my original post,  My comments are about drug use, not about Shannon in particular.

Carlos!

Water into wine?  Shoot, that was nothing.  You should have been there when I split the Red Sea.  Ooooh boy!  Darn near got a hernia after that one.  Took me forty years to recover.

I'll play democrat:  to anyone who might have been offened by the truth, I'm sorry I said it.

And my final note:  I offered a great idea for cleaning up the sport, that we, well, I'm retired, so, you pick the ten or fifteen games you want testing at,and the athletes all pay for their own test, and everyone gets tested.  End of problem.  You all sign a waiver anyway.  What's up with turning down a way to clean up the sport?  Did anyone come up with a better solution?  Nope.  Cost too much, liability issues, privacy rules, independent ADs, too many groups in charge, no one in charge.  All excuses, no action.  So many talk a big game and say clean it all up, but no one wants to put up or even step up.  But what you can do is get off the topic of what to do about a supposed "cheater" and giving the points to number two who becomes number one, yet the "case" hasn't been decided, or has it?  By the rules of the Games she attended, there was no violation.  So damned if you do and damned if you don't, but the majority of the discussion was a aimed at personal attack, and they were petty. Like it or not, petty, crude, and born out of muck and, yes, I believe, jealousy.  Attack the problem, yes, the person, no.  Personal attacks are as stuupud as your stuupud sheaf toss. (Kevin, bet you thought I couldn't sneak that in, didn't you?)  Shannon is a friend of mine, and I am proud to say so.  I would not jump on her or any one and would support her or any one piled on.  Beating your chest and posting big talk is meaningless.  Demand of your organizations (SAAA,SSAAA, SHA, and whatever else is out there)and pay for it yourselves, and be done with it.  You have the power to change rules.  Anyone caught failing a sanctioned drug test from any sport whatsoever, shall be banned from any Highland Games Athletic competition for a year, make it two or three.  Are you willing to do that?  I doubt it.  You'll just pile on the next person that comes within your scope.  Oh, by the way, in the early 1990s I was tested at the Sacramento games.  I was clean.  And so was everyone else.  Sacramento was not the biggest games on the schedule, but they tested.  It can be done.  Do you all have the williness.  Hmmmm?  Why, bother, easier for "some of you" to gang up  and pile on.

Sheaf tossing: stuuuuuupud event.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have some meteors to push out of the way of planet earth.  It is hard to be a god, but somehow, I manage to get through the centuries.  Don't forget, Christmas is coming, and I am making a list from this thread.  I got a coal mine in Utah.

let's not get carried away......

   We must first compile the list of banned substances...

          have it all set in stone before it can be left alone

(college students version of poetry).

  And speaking of poetry are we not getting awfully close to my post from earlier this year about one governing body so that drug testing can be possible?

  (now watch this bastard go over 150 posts ...)

Wow, this is going to be a very long thread!  Guess I'll do my part to keep it going.  Oh, and I'll add a personal pic to go along with the hot blonde chicks.

>In many cases, a public shaming by your peers can go just as far as a banning from a "sanctioning body."

Jim, that's certainly true. Richard, while Shannon may have tested positive, this sport is not dirty. Test at the traditionally tested games, but testing in general is a bad idea for this sport when many of the venues are already hurting for money. I've seen more of this money problem this year than in any other year that I've competed since 1995.