- What would we, UHA, gain from hosting Pro's?
- What would our Festivals / Fairs gain?

The expenses & requirements to host a Pro division are pretty straight forward. Our Festival committees are looking at ROI.

The Fairs don't have a clue one way or the other. What can I sell them?

Personally, I appreciate the effort & skill Pro's display but I can't collect 1.5-3k just so I can rub shoulders w/ the "Big Boys"

This board has improved A LOT lately & discussions have been well controlled/civil.

I would sincerely appreciate everyone's feedback

 

In my opinion, looking for an ROI is going to lead nowhere. I doubt there's any ROI for an Am games either. Heavy Events is a labour of love in pretty much all cases. Granted, so is P&D and most other things. The average festival goer is looking for atmosphere. We're part of that. But if you want to see things cleared out fast, put on a just dance comp. Or a just pipe comp. Or just heavies.

 

Your big heavies are supported by a big base in north america. You need the Am division to push up the top throwers. But you need an AD who WANTS those big throws at his games to drive a Pro games. But it's usually one guy, a huge fan, who drags the rest of the board with him and says "I want us to get the best guys here, tell everyone in the crowd we've got the best guys and we are going to go on the force of that."

 

But if your board is looking for numbers, that's going to be a hard sell.

Sean also makes a good point.  Heavy Athletics is only one element.  Dancers, pipers, and whatever else they do at the festivals to give people other things to do and watch.  

just some of my thoughts. 

1st of all, this is a great thread.

 

 

McBain1975 wrote: Plus, the audience really doesn't care if the throwers are pro or am, they just want to see the big guys in kilts throwing the trees (those that argue otherwise, I think, are kidding themselves.)

 

While I would partly agree with this I don't think it's always the case. When I was in NH last year at the beer tent after the games I overheard patrons spouting out stats of the various throwers. I was highly impressed. I was surprised they didn't pull out rookie trading cards.

 

Your ROI, if you want to call if that, depends on how you sell the event. A lot of it has to do with marketing and informing the public. People want to see things go far and high. Put the Pros on the field and they'll see them go even farther and higher. The more the public is informed the more will come to see the bigger throws. The more people through the door, the more revenue you produce and also the more you can charge vendors. The more you charge vendors the less you can charge the public which creates a low-cost event to take the family to and increases attendance and so the cycle continues.

 

Look at the Celtic Classic. That games was built around Athletics and then the festival was added afterwards. It's free to the public and they get 100k+ people through the gates. Bethlehem, PA isn't exactly Las Vegas, NV yet their attendance dwarfs Vegas. Vegas just dropped their Pro class this year because they feel it doesn't bring anything to the table. One could argue a lot of things need to be changed for the Vegas games to grow and eliminating the Pro class is not one of them.

 

The people that "just want to see the big guys in kilts throwing the trees" are the people that are uninformed as to what all goes on. They don't know how the events work, they don't know the history, they don't know that the throw they just saw that looked far was actually just a few feet off of a world record. This is the stuff that enticed me when I first started going. This is why a quality announcer shouldn't be spared. I would even go to say get an announcer over a Pro class the first couple years.

 

Like Nate said, people know a big throw when they see one. You have me follow Matt Vincent on a stone throw and you'll see a difference in the crowd.

 

IMO, it all comes down to how you advertise and inform. Pros are going to do what they do best: entertain and throw really far.

 

 

I've been lucky enough to share games tents & they are normal guys imo. Half of them are pissy & stand offish, the other half are happy to be there. A few want to sell you something & the majority will offer advice when they see an opportunity. As I said, normal guys. I don't see a draw or intangible benefit along this premise of entertainment or atmosphere.

1 of the festivals does collect a gate fee, unfortunately they don't collect entry data. So we have no way to quantify the percentage that Athletics brings in. Idea just as i type this, offering a discount/coupon at the gate for coming to see the Athletics? We distribute them, $1-2 of entry?

This festival does have advertising & marketing at it's disposal. We are trying to help them properly use the resources available. Brochures/leader board, T.V., Radio, etc.

Our second Festival does not collect a fee as it's held in a city park. 1/2 of the festival is subsidized through the City Budget. the rest is brought in from entry fees from Pipers, Dancers, Athletes & Vendors.

The 3rd festival will hold its inaugural Games this November. It will be patterned after the 2nd, with City funding & Entry fees. It will also be out of the way in Moab UT. 4-5hr car rides after a plan ride will make getting Pro's to commit difficult I'm sure.

The first Festival provides the bare minimum for a Pro division. Stewart supplements the rest as best as he can w/ Sponsors. Which leads into my next question, how can I bridge the gap between Pro's & my sponsors?

Festivals 2 & 3 are more than happy to allow us to invite Pro's but cannot justify funding so we would need to collect sponsors. Every Sponsor I've worked with to date is interested in helping the local community b/c it's the local athlete & his family/friends that will return & purchase something from the sponsor at a later date. Where Pro's, possibly only to include "rookie Pro's" due to funding, don't entertain or put back into the community any better than Am's, what is the benefit?

The Fairs are very strictly numbers driven. This, our first year at the County level, will predicate whether we are retained to entertain at the State Fair next year. My initial thought was to hold a Pro/Am. 4 Pro's & the winners of our local UHA championship. hit the ground running with Pro's from day 1. There by "showing off" our local talent, providing the crowd w/ Professional level throwing to demonstrate the difference & grow other Pro events. I want to believe that getting to the fairs & it's 100-250k+ attendance would work wonders for Pro & Am games statewide. But I'm drawn back to the numbers & sponsors. The company contracted to run the fairs wants a quantifiable return for their entertainment dollar. If I start off procuring all funding for the Pro's then I will have an incredibly steep uphill fight for future funding. We need to start off with funding.

I don't know that this is actually unique to Loon, but this is not typical. Many of our spectators are many-year repeats, who really know who and what they're seeing. They remember athletes, throws, results, and records.

On the other hand, the Celtic has athlete groupies, um, cheering sections like I haven't seen anywhere else.

-Wayne

 

Since there is no entry fee for customers really push the marketing for low-cost family entertainment. The first step is getting the customers in the door. When they start buying from the vendors is when it pays off.

 

The more customers through the door, the more you can charge vendors and that will give you more $ for your budget. Also, the mroe customers through the door, the more people see your sponsor's advertisements which gives them better exposure and more local people buy from them.

 

For instance, Four Peaks Brewery is a big sponsor for our games here in Phoenix. Sure, the Pro's that are leaving after the festival is gone wont' be contributing. But if the pros attract more athlets then that's more exposure for Four Peaks and more money they'll make both at the vendors and their restaurants, beer sales in stores, etc. Win win for them.

 

The first step, imo, would be to advertise the crap out of the games and really play on that "no gate fee" for customers to get them in the door and buying stuff.

 

 

 

 

Wayne, wasn't criticizing. Just saying that it was awesome hearing people talk about athletes an their numbers.

These games usually have 4-5 pros, where the ams typically field 2-3 classes. Unless we're volunteering to shag--because pros need someone to shag for them, most don't give a shit who was there for the pro day.  I mean, there's passing interest, but it's not like we're all running around looking for autographs. 

If the games pay for the extra cost: 

+ this builds loyalty among the local/regional throwers, who when they feel are wanted entertain the crowd very well -- In an ideal situation w/ a good announcer, the crowd and throwers form a feed back loop and they feed off of each other.  

+ if AD can take pro/championship budget to upgrade equipment instead, then there is an investment into the local throwing community (but this is a dream as money would be spent elsewhere).  Example: 1st yr I hosted the LW Nationals, there was a 28lb Polanik weight for sale on track and field board that I passed on.

+ Is there a possibility to leverage the pro talent in some form of clinic to help locals?

It is the package of diverse family entertainment that the games offer that keeps people coming back year in and year out.   So would the extra cost be better spent on a sheep herding trial, a second entertainment tent, more money in family activities, history, falconry demonstration, ... hiring another another leg pipe band ( did I actually type that?)  

Part (not necessarily a major part) of my motivation of finding two other games to share the Lightweight Nationals championship was justifying the cost to the games.   I felt I could get more bang for the buck by plugging "will be returning to .... " every third year.  So justifying the cost plays a role 

As an AD of smaller festival & county games I feel responsible to help grow the Pro division just as much as the other classes. I don't foresee involvement our sport growing w/o the Pro ranks to shoot for, learn from and/or measure ourselves against.

I do believe there is something to wanting to watch the elephants in the circus. The guys who can do the outrageous stuff us mere mortals can't.

Unfortunately, I'm not a salesman. I need a lot more than my persistence, smile & charm to convince a committee to spend money on the guys I think are cool.

I've been to enough games with just Ams, masters, women and those with Pros as well and I'll say that Detroitpete's observations are accurate. Most fans don't know the difference between pros and ams and what is good and what isn't. They just love the throwing and the atmosphere. 

That being said, advocating for more just Am games because it is difficult to begin a pro class is not the direction the sport needs. Joel there IS something to watching those "elephants" do amazing tricks. The best example is sheaf and hammer. You cant tell me it's equally as entertaining watching an Am throw 26' versus a pro going 30-33' or an Am throwing 100' in LH vs a pro going 130'+. There is a noticeable difference in intensity, in the competition, and in the aura of the games. 

Also, advocating less pro games gives Ams nothing to shoot for. A lot of people do this sport to get better and better. With no next step determining world champs, national champs, state champs, etc it becomes an over glorified LARPing session. We need to strive for numbers and distances and database scores because it gives throwers more to work towards. 

I do realize my rant was slightly off topic, but Joel, I think the advice that has been given to raise the funds for a pro class are solid ideas. If you and your crew can advertise not only a good time at the festival, but an awesome athletic display of strength, coordination, and intense competition, I believe you will bring crowds. You are doing a great thing by trying to do this! Don't give up! 

McBain, your previous experience on NASGA is very similar to mine. Thanks for your candor. This is my first post in years. I solicited opinions & knowledge from personal friends before starting this topic & I was hoping for different points of view & ideas. Y'all have been very helpfull. I have friends that are either Pro's or are on the verge of turning Pro or aspire to become Pro & I feel a responsibility to them. I'm the one in a position to enact change. I agree that other games aren't my concern. Thankfully I have a wonderful organization & can dedicate energy to improving the Games in our charge. One thing I can't ever imagine myself tolerating is any one division harassing another.

Oh, goodness, not taken as criticism at all. I'd actually be interested in feedback from others about whether they see this elsewhere. I haven't seen it.

 

After Karl Dodge retired from throwing in 1999-2000,  the pro division started dying off in the RMSA.  Then soon after that  the Estes Park games started going downhill, when it kicked out the RMSA and depleted the pros.  3 years ago I was asked to help with it.  We added the RMSA back into it, with more pros, and more events with more money.  All of a sudden there is more throwers popping up in the Colorado area that are motivated to throw far, and a ton of people have come back to watch the athletics again(good weather helps too).  Estes has the budget to do it.  Not all games do.  I respect the fact that the president of the festival wanted to do more and get the athletics to what it used to be. 

 

Hapy is right about Scotland. It is an honor to be able to compete at one of their games.  The people watching know the athletes throwing are trained at what they do.  They get sponsors every year and it's usually a local class and an open class.  The states have turned the games into a throwing powerlifting meet and that's fine.   We need some of those comps to get more involved.  In some ways it does water down what heavy athletics is.  I realize their are some that just want to tell their friends and families that they are a highland games athlete, and in some cases it's only because they are willing to pay an entry fee and get a kilt.  Is this representing a scottish heavy athlete? Who wants to watch that.  There are pro's that are all about themselves and hate am's.  I can't stand that either.  It's really hard to mix these two together.  

The big-games model: optimize the spectator experience for athletics to be a major games anchor. This involves:

 

Every prospect begins their interaction with you with their primary concern being price and ROI. Build relationships with your prospects.  Sell the sizzle NOT the steak.  Create energy by selling the opportunity not the product (all products are essentially the same).  The prospect needs to hear that the event is so important that he'll miss out if he doesn't take part--help him want to take part--the cost becomes the secondary issue and an 'investment' with much more return than he had previously thought.

 

What's this mean for us?  The Festival is the thing!  It is the excitment and our reason for being.  The sponsors need to WANT to be part of this or they'll miss out.  We all have our role to play, AD's Judges, Announcers and athletes (pro or am--doesn't matter), but the MOST important group for all of us is the CROWD.  They pay the bills--they are why we're there--they buy stuff from the sponsors.  If they are excited and feeling part of something fun--they spend more and will come back next year--hopefully bringing others with them.

 

As athletes we need to focus more on this, IMHO.  If you throw, move your chair from event to event, only get out of your chair to throw, sit there with your log book and smart phone--soley focused on scores, maybe even wearing a towel over your head--guess what?  You're TAKING from the event and not GIVING to it. Chances are, you're probably acting like a total douche to the rest of the athlete's too.  I'm not saying act like a spastic monkey on crack--but you ignore the crowd at our peril.

 

That rope or fence that seperates us from the crowd is there for safety.  It keeps them off the field--but WE can cross it--and should.  Our entertainment is NOT entertainment if all we do is throw and occasionally wave at the crowd.  Some people will go apoplectic about this, but I always take the weights and stones around (carefully--safely and as a spotter) for the crownd to touch, lift and see what we deal with--I tell them how freekin' heavy it is--and how much it hurts :)  I point to the guys on the field and say "You've seen this and how heavy it is--watch what these guys can do with it for you".

 

 PR's:  When someone gets a PR--the announcer needs to shout it like it's a world record--and let the crowd know that the guy they just saw just did his absolute BEST for them.  Here's how you mess that up:  Was at a games on am day, the pros to throw on day 2.  We were at 15 with WOB--a guy hit his PR on it.  You know what the announcer said?  (Not Mike Brown) Didn't mention the guy's PR--but said "15 feet really isn't that high--you'll see higher throws tomorrow".  So should we be surprised when people in the crowd who were at first 'into it' then scoffed and walked away?

 

Cabers:  THIS is what everyone wants to see--and they want to see them turned.  Sorry, but this usually creates an entire thread worth of debate.  Are we focused on ourselves--or the crowd.  If we're focused on ourselves here's how it goes:  The 2 studs running neck and neck in scoring decide they want the biggest stick they can get--to settle things between them.  To hell with the rest of the field or the crowd.  Then we watch no throw after no throw--or partial turns etc for 90% of the event.  Then the 2 studs let rip.  Look--if a caber toss of 10:00 or 2:00 wins--the damn caber was too big.  It ain't about you--it's about the crowd.  I'm NOT saying we get some pencil that anyone from the crowd can turn--but just remember--they want to see us turn cabers.  Act accordingly.

 

I invite people in the crowd to come and grab the caber at the fat end (again VERY mindful of safety) and then up-sell how heavy, long and difficult it is.  Doesn't matter if the stick is 85 lbs and 22 feet long--they get their hands on it and it feels like a telephone pole.

 

Let the crowd hear your good natured ball-busting between athlete's.

 

Sell the excitement and fill the dead space.  There's a lot of down time during our games--going from event to event and taking a much needed rest in between--AD's who rush us through without at least a chance to catch our breath, risk having us get injured.  So fill the space with with anything you can to keep the crowd happy--maybe a one-toss monster caber challenge between the studs--maybe bring some pipers on the field; use the time to educate the crowd more about the events; interview an athlete; talk with the crowd and have them pick thier 'guy' to root for.  Athletes, take a few moments to just shake someone's hand and thank them for coming.

 

When meeting with sponsors or prospects--see if you can take a few throwers with you--create excitement and let the prospect know that he doesn't want to miss this chance.

 

Pro or am--without a viable festival, we won't have a place to play.  If you want pros, then it just means a bit more work on sponsors and prospects--but NEVER EVER downplay the am athlete's to do this.  You want to poison the well--give the festivals or sponsors ONE whiff of drama.  Drama between athletes, ADs etc will ruin us.  Pros trash talking ams--ams trash talking pros, in front of others--and we're finished. 

 

We're modern day gladiators.  The crowd is more important than our numbers or petty selfish bitching about pros, ams, lightweights, masters, ad infinitum.

 

I think that speaks to our support in Alma.  And--not to put too fine of a point on it--when was the last time you saw the Ams day at Alma?

 

As far as comparisons side-by-side, sure, the crowd can see that a pro can throw farther than an Am in most cases.  That's why they're pros--but having a games where a guy who struggles with a 20 WFD throwing at the same time as a pro class is just stupid. Not all AMs struggle to throw a 20 FT. wfd, so we shouldn't paint them all with the same brush either.

 

When it comes to pros bringing in ams--sure, there are a few guys who are throwing A and want to move up--or a few guys who want a few free-clinic moments to get coaching.  But again, I wouldn't pain all ams with that brush either. 

 

Here's what I'm absolutely sure of:  Divisiveness between pros and ams can do nothing but harm our sport/hobby and lead to trouble with our festivals.  We're the only ones making the divisiveness happen, therefore, we're the ones that COULD end it--if we chose to.

You are thinking of Valenti.  He is gone doing reps to infinity.  There's a difference between hating something and not caring.  Craig falls more into the not caring, LOL.  

- Solid announcer who knows the sport and spends time getting to know the athletes.

- Visual aids - Signs & posters explaining the sport, events and classes. Names on shirts, bibs, etc. An announcer can do a lot, but not everyone will be there to hear everything they say.

- Close proximity to the crowd and engaging them - especially kids. At every single games I attend, I always pull a kid out of the crowd and let him hold something heavy, chat him up, etc. I learned this from some great throwers and it is a 100% win every time. This is even bigger when the athletes are pros.

- Call local papers, websites and news outlets in advance of the event. Let them know what's going on. Never underestimate the hustle of someone desperate for fresh content.

These things lead to crowd draws over time. If I have to answer to a festival committee about ROI, I am going to show them a growth plan with steady reductions in overhead and increases in ticket sales based on the popularity of the games. I would tell them it's a three-year endeavor, but with the right approach it can take the festival to the next level. Show them Celtic Classic, show them Loon. Tell them they can be at the forefront of making this sport bigger and more popular. Every single community wants to have things that are the "best around." They want something to brag about that's unique but appealing. Tell them that there are world-class athletes waiting in line to give them this. Tell them everyone within three states will hear about it.

Getting the best in the world means nothing if you don't yell it from the mountain tops.

 

Is that really what this has become?

I like the marketability of Highland Games as entertainment. When sold in this regard the ROI is less tangible. Projections of increased gate & vendor sales.

The more I think of it the entertainment quality really hits home. Whether the crowd is watching Pro's or Am's, we have an opportunity to entertain & grow a fan base. The larger the  fan base(market share) the easier sponsors & funding will be to procure. Successfully marketed County games will provide the data needed to confidently project increased revenue to Festivals willing to fund Pro's.

Intermediate conclusion from this is to find a quality Announcer ASAP. Develop the interest & repeat attendance because the customer doesn't want to miss the "Show"

I'm not sure about "worthy of the Pro's" though. If I'm paying for entertainment, I'm worthy. Perhaps I need to look at it differently. Would our County Rec games be "worthy"? due to minimal size & budget probably not( there might also be a rule about pro's competing at festivals, idk). Which transfers the "worthiness" to "size" & that quality seems an appropriate yardstick.

Would the festival entertain the crowd by hiring some one who plays just at open mics in coffee shops (and knows a handful of songs) or would you like to entertain the crowd with a professional who has honed his skills playing in the studio, on on the big stage, knows 100s of songs, and many instruments.

Pros+Marketing/Advertising+Knowledgeable Announcer = Success.

Additionally, I would argue that pros do enhance the entertainment value. Perhaps my Dad can share his thoughts. He was a heavy events marketing genius.

Last Year in Bellingham we started the first Pro Class. I counted on the good graces of generous Pros that came to compete for basically Prize money! We had a 10 man Pro class and it was awesome!

Who gains from having a Pro class? We all do! Ryan Stewart put on a Clinic Friday night and helped out 15-20 athletes! He stayed until everyone was done and all questions were asked.... He basically did it for peanuts!

IMO in order to grow our sport we should cultivate our Athlete classes! As most of us know once an athlete turns Pro he can cut the amount of competitions by half!

This season I went after the New Pros.... I got Duncan and Chuck Kasson... I think giving the "new Pros" a stepping stone to get their carreer going is good for everyone... Perhaps when they are World Champs they will remeber our Games fondly and want to return.

We got a Huge Return on our investment last season.... Because all of the Ams and Masters had a chance to watch and learn from the Pros... which is priceless to most of us!

The HG games committee this season gave us more money for our budget because they saw how attractive it was last year to have the Pro class... We had a huge audience!

 

You AD's who are tentative to start a Pro class because of money... You might be surprised at how cheap you can run a Pro class.... The generousity of most of these guys is amazing!

I truly cant see running Bellingham without a Pro class....

 

Its not always about what can the Pros to for your games..... sometimes its about what we can do for the Pro athletes...  The return on your investment doesnt have to be monetary.

New, but broken-in sheaves.

We mow the grass in and around the Trigs and take great pride in the details we put in. All trigs are freshly painted!

We make sure everyone is hydrating and sunscreened!

We have great interactive announcer... and I will announce as well.

You want the Pros to perform! Give em the stage! Ramp the crowd up and let them know who your Pros are! Let them know how far they throwing and if they are going for a record... Stop the Show and highlight the attempts!

 

Bret and I have traveled all over for games. We take the things we like and we know other athletes like and make it happen in our Games.

Our Motto at Bellingham is : "For Athletes by Athletes"

This isn't the NBA, NFL, or MLB. They bring nothing to the sport except a wallet and

a huge diva ego. Not all, but most. The sport and this board is turning quite comical.

Lots of drama for a teeny, tiny sport.

 

i've loved throwing in flights where ams, mix with pros. im into that. i also started a games that has zero spectators and im doing my finest to support a PRO class as soon as possible. so im a obviously a fanboy and will always try to support anything related to the sport. 

with all of that being said, the vast majority, almost all spectators have zero clue. there are certainly anomalies, but the crowd will always want to see a caber turned and will watch height events because they are measurable to their eye and the limited amount of attention they are actually paying, they dont care what the dudes name is that does it though.

if i were to host games from a pure business point, i would absolutely do my finest to recruit as many top AMs as possible....then spend $1000 on a the best announcer possible. i just saved $600 (at least) and he(she) would make sure that the crowd is way pumped to see AM guy go 50' in the ostone....or whatever. cause no one in that crowd knows that PROs go 55'.......or that there even is a PRO class in most cases. no one out there knows if an athlete is hitting the right positions or not. what they do know is they can absolutely take photos or videos, post that on Instagram or the BlueWebsite with hashtags about dudes and chicks in skirts and they're happy. 

luckily i happily lose money on my own games every year and i'm happy to do so, because i feel its good for the sport.

these are mostly points, but my honest opinion of what i've learned after 5 years.

Speed Racer wrote: It doesn't take a genius to see that the "Pros" are clearly the weak link of the sport. This isn't the NBA, NFL, or MLB. They bring nothing to the sport except a wallet and a huge diva ego. Not all, but most. The sport and this board is turning quite comical. Lots of drama for a teeny, tiny sport.

What may surprise some folk is that I would not stage this event at a Highland Games.

I had the pleasure of seeing a Basque Stone Lifting Event in a sold out 9000 capacity Bull Ring near Pamplona.

I am convinced that the atmosphere in there on that day would have resulted in Personal Records galore.

Meanwhile back in the real world - I can only dream.

We will start with announcing & embracing that everyone needs to help build the entertainment value if interested in growing our sport/product. As fan base & social recognition builds it will be easier to promote the "next level" of entertainment. We just need to do so carefully so as not to detract from our Am competitors.

Simply put, organize & build our market share until they expect nothing less than the highest level of entertainment.

Embracing the "entertainment reality" has been the big break through for me & I'm looking forward to spreading this ideology to our throwers.

?1. how many pro's in Utah?

?2. How many Pro's do you want to come?

?3. How many pro's within 500 miles?

?4. How expensive are the Hotels close to your games, or will you provide Rooms?

?5. What is the payout for 6th place? will it equal plane fare and hotel costs if they are not provided? 

the reason why I ask these questions because these are things I have heard come up over the years. I kinda of scoped it to Utah, but they could be assumed anywhere. Don't get me wrong I think announcers and ROI are all important But when asking for money from a committee they are going to want to know everything and what it's being spent on, they don't want to go "over budget".

Looks like I should go to Boise. All the west coast games seem so fun but flying is so pricey! 

I think this mentality with pros is definitely the way to go (if possible). 

 

+1

 

Even so, 1st was $550 which included travel. If someone came from 2000+ miles away and paid their own hotel they would barely break even with 1st place, let alone 6th or 7th. It's not Seckman's fault (the AD who does a great job putting it all together), it's whoever sets the Pro budget. I'll always go because it's my home games. Phoenix had a much larger turnout than usual this year. I'm hoping they see this and can raise their budget but a lof of games just operate with the model that a $1500 pot will suffice for 6-8 pros. This is the very reason why Tucon is discontinuing Pros.

 

 

 

Well, I obviously cannot speak in terms of HG pros, but when I was competing actively as a pro in strongman, I routinely lost money.  American shows hardly ever give you any travel money.  In fact, at the Olympia in 2011 was the only time I was provided a free hotel room.  Pay scales are always graduated, so you are always taking a risk of getting NOTHING going to a show. 

Contrast that to when I got to compete in one of Hugo Girard's contests in 2010.  Hotel and all meals included, and I made some decent money without placing near the top.

One reason I allowed myself to lose money on contests was to try to get my name out there and eventually gain invites to larger International contests.  As it turns out, I was never really good enough to get there, but that was my thought process behind it.  Again, not sure if it is even relevant in HG.

One obvious difference is that there are A LOT of Pro contests in HG domestically.  For strongman in the US, we have like 1-2 a year.  So you have to get those other (international) invites to even be able to routinely compete.

 

Game, Set, Conway.

 

I quoted Steve because it is my SINCERE hope more of the Ams who are thinking about making the jump look at what Steve is saying and do the right thing by their fellow Athletes, no matter their ability or gender, the AD's, the fans, and most importantly, themselves.  There are some real lessons in this thread...real wisdom...from fellas like you and Steve, who see the same issues from different ends.

 

I am grateful so much of this is finally being aired out so those of us who want more from this Sport can better plan our work and work our plan.  Success at your level Ryan, which I aspire to every single morning when I'm out running or doing hammer winds, is not just about distance. 

 

Really, how could it be? 

 

What folks need to know...what they must know...is distance alone guarantees nothing.  By that same token. the ability to interact with a crowd guarantees nothing.  There is a harmony between those two that the best Highland Games Athletes have found, and that is why we remember their names; that's certainly why the crowd does. 

 

Find that balance between athleticism and showmanship, which are not mutually exclusive, and you'll never come up short at the end of the day.

 

 

To make a pro feel guilty about taking some prize money, in my opinion, defeats the purpose of calling them a pro. This sport has come extremly far in regards to athletic talent. I know the work that these pros put in because I do the same every day. Not one day goes by where I'm not thinking about how I can better myself as an athlete to throw far and to put on a good show for the people that are going to pay $20 bucks to come and watch.

 

I have big respect for the amatuer class but I have A LOT of respect for the Professionals because of the work that goes into what they achieve. If you feel as an AD that someone who dusts off thier throwing BOOTS the night before the games is going to be more entertaining then by all means invite them, but don't make the people who give this sport 100% feel guilty about recieving rewards for doing well. If you don't want them don't invite them.

 

Just my opinion. OH and BTW Han Shot first. :D I think our rematch is going to happen this year Dunc!

At all.

 

 

As much as everyone loves to throw around the term "pro" around here, HG itself is NOT a professional sport the way most people would label a sport a "professional". You don't get PAID to train for it, eat for it, etc. Does anyone "pro" NOT have a real job?

 

The way I see it, it's on the ATHLETE to keep what they kill. Game choice, marks, relationship with games directors, people, peers. The ADs are providing what they can, with MANY masters to serve. With some games, that becomes a ton. And they give that to the athletes in the vast majority of cases. With others, heavies are a small section, tossed off in the corner so they don't hurt anyone other than themselves.

 

Gord Walsh, a prince of a man for any fortunate enough to have dealt with previously, once told me that he hated guaranteed payout because he saw what it did in a lot of cases. Local guys who wouldn't train, wouldn't put in the work, wouldn't extend themselves at all, would creep out of the beer tents come game day because they knew there were slots and some money to be made.

Obviously that's an extreme case but that doesn't make it invalid.

 

That being said, when he started ADing games that had the money, the payout might not have always been top notch, but they had hotel rooms, food, transportation and flight. ADs do what they can with what they have.

 

Athletes should do the same.

As far as paychecks for entertainment, every Professional entertainer should be paid an appearance fee according to demand for their services( a top 5 Pro should expect to receive more than a top 20 Pro). Other than that why not reward for Records? Field Record gets X, National gets Y, and World gets Z? And/Or individual event bonuses for placing? I of course mean on top of appearance fee. I now Wally/Enumclaw operate in a similar fashion.

We currently only have 1 Pro in Utah & despite the ambitions of a few Am's that isn't going to change anytime soon. Barring some of the local strongman catching the throwing bug I would have to import talent. Until UHA runs a large festival, like our Utah Scot Fest, our best opportunity will be the Fair & UHA Championship games.

So lets look at it this way...

Mock proposal to include a Pro Division at either of UHA's high profile events( based upon ability to advertise effectively to a large market) in the Salt Lake valley.

$1200 for 4 pro's, paid out equally at $300 each

Event placing aggregate of $30/20/10

Overall placing aggregate of $50/25/10

Lodging & transportation included

All told we could come at under 2k BUT would any Pro be willing to attend?

I can see allocating funds to this purpose understanding that as UHA's entertainment product improves our returns will increase. I can perpetuate the advertising ability to sponsors. We do still have a few things in our backyard to clean up but the above proposal will be a reality very soon.

Would any of you Pro's be interested?

 

The Scots "local" payout system I think does this to some extent. Gord's experience was with some of the maritimes games 15+ years ago. It just stuck with me.

 

Now, because of this our 'Open' class ranges a bit from honest to goodness pros (Hadley, Doherty, Johnston, Young, etc) to guys that would be considered 'Ok' Am A's. Speaking personally, I have no illusions about my abilities but I know in the database I show up in 3 different classes, depending on who's putting in the marks.

 

I think a lot of smaller games could adapt this fairly easily in truth. I don't know why anyone would get their nose out of joint if a decent Am made $100-150 worth of gas money because the AD had it there and it was a "keep what you kill" kind of budget. I mean if you're arguing that, you're lacking a bit of something to do. Bigger games can have more divisions because, well, they can.

 

The question comes up about "what about invite only games" but hell, that's on the AD. Most of the invitees are the cream of the crop. The "Elite" as it were. More competition, bigger throws, bigger payout, travel money, hotels, hookers, blow, whatever. But that's your big games, right? Not every game can be a big one and not every game WANTS to be a big one.

 

A small games with a modest budget might not be able to attract some of the bigger pros just because of the financial sense. But you might get some high level Ams making a trip if they know they might recoup some gas money.

 

Then you can tell people you pay for sex all the time 

 

FREEDOM!!!!!!

 

I would come but I'm hung up on "Lodging & transportation included".

 

Does that mean you would pay lodging/transportation in addition to the payout listed or does that mean lodging/transportation is included in the payout listed?

 

I enjoy seeing new places and meeting new poeple so just because it isn't a top paying games doesn't mean I wouldn't want to come. I don't consider myself a "HG snob" by any means, but I do have criteria I have to stick to. I can't lose money going to a games. I live a lifestyle that allows my wife to stay home and raise our children. That's my choice and I won't change it. With that said, I can't afford to lose money travelling out of state to compete. I also ask myself is the payout enough to make it worth it for my wife to be all alone with our 3 year old and our 1 year old for approximately 1.5-2.5 days. Anyone with kids should get a chuckle. That is some serious work and I don't belittle what she does. If I look at the payout schedule and who is coming and estimate what I *should* be able to net and that number is somewhere around $500 (plus or minus $50-100) then it is worth it. That covers a month and a half of my summer electric bill, lol.

 

With all of of that said, if transportation and hotel were included in addition to the payout I would most certainly be interested and would be excited to come. However, if transportation and hotel were part of the listed payout (which based your saying you would come in under $2k, I would assume that means travel/accomodations are included in the listed payout), I wouldn't be able to afford it. It's not that I wouldn't want to go, it comes down to finances and my family's budget.

 

Have you thought about contacting a Hotel to sponsor the event that may give 2 rooms (double up the 4 pros) for free or a heavy discount as their sponsorship? Just one idea.

You wouldn't have any problem fielding 4 pros with that.  

Duncan McCallum wrote: I'm your huckleberry Josh...provided there are no hammers.

 

TheThorpedo wrote:  Not a Canadian term. Actually had to look it up.

Not really an additional expense, people have to eat when they're home too.