Useful Lifts Roundtable
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Category: Nasgaweb Forums
Forum Name: Training
Forum Discription: This forum is for discussion about training for the Scottish Heavy Events.
URL: http://www.nasgaweb.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16321
Printed Date: 3/26/26 at 3:43pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.11 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Useful Lifts Roundtable
Posted By: James Fuller
Subject: Useful Lifts Roundtable
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 11:58am
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Am new to the Heavy Athletics but not new to strength competitions. I got an idea to post some videos of lifts. Looking for responses on whether or not it would be good for Hammer or Caber etc. Maybe an exercise would be good BUT if changed a little, it could be an even better. A lift might be good for overloading the shoulders but not directly throw specific. Maybe a lift I post is a complete waste of time. I'm looking to learn from the input BUT maybe others could benefit from this as well. First lift is the Barbell Bent Press and this is how I do them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PETNIi7hIGc" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PETNIi7hIGc A slow exercise to be sure BUT it develops alot of flexibility,core strength and strengthens the shoulders in an almost isometric manner. So is it a gold, silver or fool's gold exercise? Fool's gold exercise is an exercise that everyone says you should do but there's nothing to backup why its so 'necessary'. ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Replies:
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 4:07pm
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One Arm Swing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP2sCIAzCsA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP2sCIAzCsA Seems like a good exercise for WOB IF I change the finish from splitting under the weight to finishing with body erect and legs straight similar to WOB. What do you folks think,Gold,Silver or Fool's Gold? ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: brandell
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 4:38pm
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NO the swing is NOT good. I have been trying to break an RKC/ Strong first certfied trainer of her swing ways. Is it a good exercise, yes. Is it good for the games, NO! The WOB is Vertical, the proper swing is horizontal in nature, meaning you want the KB projected forward. It has really hurt her WOB. But this offseason we are going to get her deadlifting more and tossing the WOB more to correct that. I know all about RKC, Strong first, Kettlebells etc. They are a geat assistance. Deadlifst, Cleans, Snatches, Squat, Front squat, press. All things done with a bar, that is what you need for the games. But the #1 thing above ALL else is THROW. There isn't anything but throwing that can get you better at throwing. If you are new to this I suggest Matt Vincents ebook.
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Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 5:04pm
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brandell, thanks for posting. Just so we're clear: I know NOTHING about RKC,Strong first,Kettlebells etc. I'm more into Olde Time Strongman(Strongman Archaeology if you will). My objective with the Swing is the same as was intended 100 years ago, to generate a lot of glute/low back speed...period. I thought this may compliment the WOB training. You're right,"you play like you practice!" is very true with throwing. I will be throwing ALOT!! I already do the Deads,Cleans,Snatches,Squats(Fore & Aft). Thanks again. ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: chirolifter
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 5:24pm
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Throw to get good at throwing, lift to get good at lifting. I feel strong for throwing would be 5-600 squat and dead, 3-350 clean, 250-300 snatch. If your there work on throwing and drills.. One thing I have learned the hard way was to be GOOD at one thing you must focus and train that one thing. I tried competing o-lifting and HG and was mediocre at best in both. It was good at first then you hit a cross roads- To take it to the next level and be good at one, I had to choose.. Good luck... Oh yeah, watch videos of the top pros from the NASGA ranking board, and the old Ryan Vierra vids.. ------------- "It's what you do when no one is watching that builds character." Gene Flynn |
Posted By: brandell
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 6:04pm
James more than glad to help. Sure the swing can help but honestly I would put my time and effort into the lifts and throws. I once thought the heavy swing would help but the dynamics of it doesn't work the way a Highland Athlete would need. Again GREAT overall lift for an accessory though. Second and I can't say this enough, please listen to Chirolifter. You are getting pure Gold listening to his advice. |
James Fuller wrote:Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 6:08pm
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chirolifter, some good info on the numbers you think are necessary. Yeah, I've hit the crossroads MANY times. I compete in Olympic Lifting,Powerlifting,Strongman and All-Round Lifting. Basically, I realized there's a big difference at becoming a better athlete through Snatches and Clean & Jerks VS getting better at those two lifts just to get better at those two lifts. The solution? Right now I'm getting ready for the Games coming up in Topsham. I am focusing on throwing technique vs a monster haul. Part of that is also cuz I'm new at this. Generally, I let my 'other' training help my next meet. I'm also getting ready for USAWA Jobe's Superman meet(combined Power and Olympic lifting meet) in September as well. Since four of the five lifts are with an Axle, I'm focusing on technique with those lifts and a crapton of grip training. I will go hard and heavy on 'other' lifts that aren't upcoming competition lifts. Basically, I'm not going to Squat more with the Squat being the only benefactor. I tried this for the first time at the past USAWA Nationals a two day meet June 29th&30th and had the meet of my life!! Broke a National record on the Barbell One Arm Deadlift and broke the World Record on the Barbell One Arm Snatch TWICE!! I got many compliments on my technique which told me I had done the right homework!! I will check out the vids!! Thanks again!! ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 6:11pm
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I hope I get to meet some of you guys at the upcoming Games in Topsham,Maine August 17th!! ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: Silverback
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 6:14pm
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Lay on us what the records were you set, one arm deadlift seems right.
------------- Mule Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/08/13 at 6:36pm
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One Arm Deadlift seems right? HMMM. Don't know what you mean. Set a 341lb Barbell One Arm Deadlift Right Handed and hit a 143lb Barbell One Arm Snatch Left Handed. Meet results here: %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.usawa.com/national-championships-7/ Video of my Snatches at the meet: %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e1GuL6AmzbU ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: Silverback
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 8:20am
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It means I like it, it is not wrong, it is right. I am assuming no straps on either lift. The links would not work for me.
------------- Mule Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 8:33am
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Thanks for clearing that up!! Let me try some different links: 2013 USAWA Nationals Meet Results: http://www.usawa.com/national-championships-7/" rel="nofollow - http://www.usawa.com/national-championships-7/ 143lb Barbell One Arm Snatch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e1GuL6AmzbU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e1GuL6AmzbU Snatch video is edited wrong. First Snatch shown is 60kgs/132lbs. Second Snatch is with 65kgs/143lbs. I missed 70kgs/154lbs. I was drug tested after the meet and passed. ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 9:15am
Disagree.
You're right that it's certainly not an RKC hip-hinge swing, but it sure isn't vertical either. It's a scoop, not a snatch pull.
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Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 9:31am
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Sean, you're saying that the goal on a WOB is to throw it up AND back as in an arc(scoop?) vs. just throwing it straight up/vertical? ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 9:54am
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I echo Gene. If your numbers are at or above what he suggested, work on the throwing stuff. If they aren't, work on both. Nothing you do is going to translate to the throws, better than the throws. I agree with Sean, WOB is not vertical. Also, nice lifting with the USAWA stuff. Chad (Al too) can help you out a bunch, he's done highland games for a long time.
On that chart it looks like Chad pulled a 418lbs one arm deadlift and Al pulled 380lbs and Frank pulled 357lbs, but maybe I'm reading that wrong.... And Chad and Al also broke the "World Record on the Barbell One Arm Snatch" with 65kg? |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 10:12am
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C.Smith, you are probably reading that right. Many lifted more than I did to be sure.The other lifters were in a different class. The Frank you mentioned is Frank Ciavattone who holds the all-time World Record One Arm Deadlift at 562lbs!! My national record was in the 110kg class. My 341lb/155kgs should be listed on the fourth attempts. Chad,Al and I all got 65kgs On the One Arm Snatch but, I believe they had done more previously in their respective weight classes. I think Al's best is 172lbs. This was by far my best meet for any of the lifting sports I do. I had figured out how to train hard for the lifts without burning out on them. If a two day contest isn't harsh enough to test your training program, what is? BTW, I'm right handed so breaking the World Record twice with my left on the One Arm Snatch was particularly gratifying!! Yep, alot more lifting to do and about 15 times more than that for throwing!! Due to a shoulder injury from Javelin, I'm going to have to train some of this stuff left handed. Do some of you guys split the events up between sides? ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: rob meulenberg
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 10:26am
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WOB is definitely NOT vertical. (sorry for the terrible photo work, best I can do in 5 minutes) I think a lot of us go too vertical on the WOB when we do not reach back far enough and then try to pull on the sucker as hard as possible to get it to fly. I know I can be guilty of this. James, I think you will find that hardly anyone will throw with both sides. It doesn't really make sense to. Do you want to be okay with both sides, or good with your dominant side? If you took 5 throws with each arm...well, you could have taken 10 throws with your dominant arm. Of course, if you have a pre-existing injury like you are saying, that is different. For instance, what I am doing right now is only because of the bicep tear. Otherwise, i would not be doing the weights or stones righty. But, reading through the training logs, I think Luke Crowley throws some off hand. And I know BJ Ketchem does (or did).  ------------- www.sportkilt.com |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 10:43am
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Rob, thanks for that!! What you did in 5 minutes would take me 5 hours!! Path of weight definitely seems 'orbital'. ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 11:13am
| It's a pendulum. All the big WFH boys have very long pulls. That's the trick. Not fast, so much, but long and always accelerating. |
Posted By: Joel Sim
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 1:39pm
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Rob, I think aligning the images as you have, albeit hurriedly, doesn't accurately represent the throw. It looks to me as though the implement in image #4 is directly above it's previous position in image #3, when taking into account position of the throwers ( Zolk?) feet to the implement. Wouldn't that support a scoop or "J" swing as Sean proffered? *disclaimer* I have only thrown the wob 13' - my progress from 12' to hitting the bar at 14' has been due to practicing the scoop as described above
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Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 1:45pm
------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 2:51pm
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Great! Glad to hear it :)
Here's a good example (with WAY too much man-love after):
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Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 3:33pm
Since when? ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: rob meulenberg
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 3:36pm
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Joel, yes of course. I think the main point was, especially for James who is brand new at this, is not to think of WOB as a purely vertical lift (i.e. swing back between the legs and snatch or upright row the weight into place). WOB is not like sheaf, where we preach "check marks". I think of the sheaf as an extremely violent movement; if you make WOB too violent, it won't go high. WOB is like a pendulum, like Sean, said. Think a parabola, with a high curvature (effectively the "J" or scoop you are talking about). ------------- www.sportkilt.com |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/09/13 at 5:52pm
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Mike's WOB looked EFFORTLESS!! ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/10/13 at 8:52am
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So, no takers on the Bent Press? Does anyone think it would be helpful to include this lift either out of season or in season? https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PETNIi7hIGc" rel="nofollow - Bent Press of 60.45kgs/133lbs ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: grasshopper
Date Posted: 8/10/13 at 9:11am
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Bent press......no Push Press......yes BTW welcome. Nice to have some more Maine throwers on here! ------------- "Breathe deeply. Refuse to be weak. Refuse to be sick. Refuse to die. Think strong and you will be." -The Mighty Atom (Yoselle Greenstein) |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/10/13 at 9:26am
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Thanks Grasshopper! Just started working on Barbell One Arm Push Presses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3d-FZd0ecag" rel="nofollow - 47.725kgs/105lb Push Press What do you think? ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: grasshopper
Date Posted: 8/11/13 at 12:26pm
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It's good......but!! I would stick to the traditional two handed push press. You one hand is more like your just trying to get under the bar rather than work a kinetic chain from your legs up through the press (much like a throw). Those kinds of lifts are fun and could be thrown in a workout as something cool to try but I wouldn't have them as the staple of you routine. ------------- "Breathe deeply. Refuse to be weak. Refuse to be sick. Refuse to die. Think strong and you will be." -The Mighty Atom (Yoselle Greenstein) |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 8/11/13 at 12:30pm
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Good thoughts Grasshopper. I appreciate your time. What you said, makes alot of sense!! ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 8/11/13 at 2:27pm
That's the trick. It's a smooth pull the whole way. And to quote Craig: smooth is far. |
Posted By: James Fuller
Date Posted: 9/01/13 at 12:33pm
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Getting ready for USAWA Jobe's Superman Meet. Its a combined Olympic Lifting and Powerlifting meet....with an Axle!! The Squat is done with a normal bar while the rest of the lifts, use an Axle. Opted for Split Cleaning and Split Snatching with a narrow grip. Why? Since there's no rotation except for what you MAKE happen, a Split Clean makes sense. You can rack the weight on your shoulders with your elbows down=less rotation and easier to get under the weight. The narrow grip on the Snatches seems to be the easiest way to pull maximum weight with an Axle. A narrow Snatch grip used to be MANDATORY in the Olympics until 1947ish. With a narrow grip, you must split. Splitting on the Clean and Snatches have definitely forced me to increase my foot speed. Maybe Split Snatches and Split Cleans would be good for the spin on throws?? Thoughts?? If you already train Snatches and Cleans then why not Split and gain some foot speed as well?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cio5yPMqDjc&feature=player_detailpage" rel="nofollow - 144lb Axle Split Snatches off Blocks ------------- Get it moving and keep it moving!! |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 9/20/13 at 4:15pm
Having pet lifts that you do well is fun, but in no way useful at developing anything but that pet lift. If you have a hankering for being old-timey, clean and press, then deadlift. And who told you a narrow grip snatch was mandatory? That's crap. A quick search of the 1936 olympics yields enough to disprove that. Also, there's a reason for a rotating bar... If you are using any kind of real weight, the rotation is going to be hell on the wrists, elbows and shoulders. I do think split cleans/snatches are a better alternative than a lot of those power snatches/cleans were the person splays their feet out wide and prays not to get hurt. In short, if you can't hang with the strong guys in the room doing what the strong guys are doing, here's the lesson: You're not one of the strong guys in the room. Be one of the strong guys in the room. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Chad Ullom
Date Posted: 9/23/13 at 3:38pm
| I think he's saying there is no rotation using an axle which is what they were going to use in that meet. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 9/23/13 at 3:58pm
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Not sure we're reading the same paragraph, Chad. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: wrighj03
Date Posted: 12/25/13 at 8:10pm
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That was f ing cool to watch. And you are using a crazy amount of stabilizer muscles which will help in other lifts. The body is very complex. The best way to find out what a particular exercise does is do 50 sets of 50 and see what hurts the next day. also overtraining is a big issue. For example take a standard DL aside from doing the dead lift you could do a snatch grip or sumo which places different emphasis on DL muscles |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/26/13 at 3:15pm
You got it in under the wire, man. You're now in the lead for the "Least True Statement Made on NASGA - Award" for 2013. Congratulations. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 12/26/13 at 5:37pm
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Josh steps in to flip the bullish*t switch back to "Real." ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: wrighj03
Date Posted: 12/26/13 at 7:15pm
| @chad Who are the other nominees? |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 12/26/13 at 7:51pm
For srs though, I hope that was an attempt at trolling...cause if not...  |
Posted By: wrighj03
Date Posted: 12/26/13 at 8:59pm
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@chad I'm not an AD or ready for the masters. It reminded me of a Turkish DL (look it up). He formed a hypothesis and should test its merit and report back to the group. Whether he does a sample set of throws that's the Control and after 4,8,12 weeks retest. And find what events it helped the most with. |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 12/27/13 at 9:23am
Turkish Delight? Delicious. I confess, I've never tested it's merits as a performance enhancer. I see that you're using English, but you appear to be speaking in what I can only assume is some kind of code. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 12/27/13 at 12:15pm
| I think all of my competition should now do 50 sets of 50 reps. I don't care of what exercise. Just do it 2 days before comp, please. |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 12/27/13 at 3:58pm
| do we really need to do that as 50 sets of 50 or can it just be one big set of 2500? |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 12/27/13 at 4:37pm
2498...2499...2500. Woo! It's a deep burn! ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |