Knock off WOB situation
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Topic: Knock off WOB situation
Posted By: adambrezina
Subject: Knock off WOB situation
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 7:25pm
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------------- Skinny guy trying to get big |
Replies:
Posted By: adambrezina
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 7:29pm
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there was a situation in Queen Mary this weekend concerning the WOB. scenerio- the WOB is usually a knock off bar in Cali games. The knock off bar were not hooked up so they made it a fixed bar. But there was a rule if any part of the implement hit the bar it was considered a foul. problem- we cleared heights but were considered fouls needs- clarification on this rule of just made up? ------------- Skinny guy trying to get big |
Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 7:58pm
| Queen Mary is an SAAA games...I don't believe that is a rule anywhere that I'm aware of. I believe anything that clears a fixed bar is OK. Strange... The SHA uses a knock-off bar and will continue to do so, when you clear a height with a knock-off bar, there are no questions about it. |
Posted By: adambrezina
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 8:01pm
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I agree Steve, it was just strange to me and never heard of this before. Love your games and will always continue to support them ------------- Skinny guy trying to get big |
Posted By: phatmiked
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 11:13pm
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Sounds a bit off to me. I've seen the implement hit the bar on knock-offs, but the bar doesn't fall. That is considered a clear. But, that is also one of the charming aspects of the HG, local game . . . local rules. Too bad we can't pull together and develop a governing body. Oh no he di'in't ------------- |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 11:41pm
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Unless they have been changed recently, the SAAA rules allow both fixed or knock-off bars just like the SHA and IHGA rules (I wrote them all). On BOTH fixed and knock-off bars the rule is that the implement must go over the bar. Touching the bar is NOT a foul. Knocking off a knock off bar means it didn't go over. Simple as that. Not sure what this rule was but my guess is that someone made that up on the spot. ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/17/13 at 11:45pm
Steve, When you clear a height with a fixed bar there is no question about it either. Either it went over or it didn't.  ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Steve Conway wrote:Posted By: adambrezina
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 1:36am
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Thanks guys.... left a sour thought in my head after the weekend and wanted some clarification. ------------- Skinny guy trying to get big |
Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 1:49am
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The
SAAA updated/revised their rule set recently.
The New SAAA Rules were ratified by the SAAA Board of Directors on
12/22/12. They can be seen by anyone at:
http://magnicorps.com" rel="nofollow - http://magnicorps.com under “Updates and
Current News”. Here is the excerpt regarding Height Events: 3. Conduct of the Height Events, Weight Over Bar and Sheaf Toss. • Standards similar to those used
in the pole vault should be used. Two configurations are allowed: i.
Knock-off bar: The crossbar should sit on pins that
extend perpendicularly from the uprights; the crossbar should not be attached
to the uprights, so that if the implement hits the bar it will generally be
knocked off. If the implement goes over the bar, the attempt is good whether or
not it hits the bar provided the bar is not knocked off the pins. ii.
Fixed bar: The crossbar is physically attached to
the uprights so that if the weight hits the bar it will remain in position. If
the implement goes over the bar then the attempt is good. In the sheaf toss the
implement may hit the bar. In the Weight for height the implement must not hit
the bar. Doing so counts as a knocked off bar.
So it would appear that they conducted the event in accordance to their current rule set. That being said, it appears that this new SAAA rule is exclusive to SAAA sanctioned games, and not something practiced at the numerous non-SAAA West Coast games. |
Posted By: Larry Satchwell
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 8:03am
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Some of you will find this interesting. Back in the '70s it was always a knock off bar in the WOB. In the sheaf, the bar was still suspended on a rope but a judge would hold a long, fly fishing looking rod against the bar and if the judge felt the bag hit the bar it was a miss. By the mid '80s the bar was so high the "touch" rule was done away with. Satch
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Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 10:53am
| That rule change is strange at best...I don't get it? If the implement just "ticks" the bar is that ok? A slight "kiss"? A "whisper"? I'd refuse to judge the event under that dumbass rule. Carlos, yes the implement Going over the bar is a "make" in fixed or knock-off BUT I've seen any number of cases where the corner of the implement catches the bar and pulls it down 6" or more enabling the rest of it to roll over the bar. I'll stick with the knock-off...I wonder what pole-vault and high jump would look like with a fixed bar :-) |
Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 11:38am
Agreed. The Borges Rules work great, I have no idea why they felt the need to make a change.
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Posted By: jlmreddog
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 1:11pm
------------- John McClure Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm. Abraham Lincoln |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 2:33pm
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Steve, Not saying I disagree but your original point was faulty - over is over. I've seen knock-off bars jump half a foot or more after being hit, come back to rest in place and that's a made attempt too (and I know you've seen those as well). ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 3:26pm
| True...but that falls into the luck category, it's still a dumb rule :-) Take a look at "how to measure" in the new SAAA rules, I don't think you wrote it that way either. " If you can't find the center of the trig use the plant foot" |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 3:35pm
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We find ourselves in violent agreement. ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: phatmiked
Date Posted: 2/18/13 at 3:52pm
haha I like this. I will be using it ------------- |
Posted By: buckcali
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 12:35am
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Yes it does and we went through the same issue on Sunday Adam... strange.. also interesting that the rules are not posted on SAAA website.. (the website above isnt saaa) BTW sorry to miss you saturday adam ;-) heard u did well ------------- Buck http://boostinternetmarketing.com" rel="nofollow - Boost Internet Marketing http://ljtherapy.com/" rel="nofollow - LJ Therapy |
Posted By: Silverback
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 7:34am
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Over officious judging. Someone wanting to be more involved seems the reason for the insane rule change. Is it now like tennis with a judge with his finger on the net/bar? And with all respect to the esteemed Carlos and Steve, the knockoff slows down the game and is a bummer for all, athletes, people watching and the poor slob that has to put it back up each time. I think there is more luck involved w a knockoff. If they want a rule change, and speed up the game, how about you chug a beer for every miss in WOB. Or even better, do that on sheaf, by the time we get to WOB we are all happy happy happy. ------------- Mule Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 7:54am
Now THAT is an interesting and excellent proposal! ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 9:11am
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Myles, I actually prefer the fixed bar. But fixed or knock-off, you need to follow a rational set of rules. This new rule by the SAAA is simply idiotic. ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: brandell
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 9:49am
Its a retarded, made up on the spot rule. If it goes over the bar, it counts period. Even on a knock off bar, if you hit the bar, it moves but doesn't come off the pins, the throw counts.
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Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 9:51am
| Myles, "crowd killers" , surely you must be thinking of the athlete that wanders off looking for the bathroom, or the one who forgets his place in the rotation and is busy talking to friends, or maybe the one who can't get his tacky or tape just right, or paces back and forth getting his focus just right... Back in the day, we used long poles with forks on them to reset the bar each time, that was really slow. Especially when the poor helpers were staring into the sun trying to find the uprights. By omitting the sheaf altogether, you can get to the beer tent earlier :-) |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 11:18am
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Just looked at their "new rules". Good Lord what a random collection of crap. And a "no alcohol" rule too? That violates my constitutional right to freedom of religion (strict Irish Catholic). Frankly, when I read it I had this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPxnQv4RH5s" rel="nofollow - reaction . ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: Mr. Natural
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 12:33pm
| I take issue with the anti-horseplay clause. I support the rights of all horses to play. |
Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 4:52pm
Indeed interesting. The SAAA National website has not had a rule set posted in over a year, aside from the "Rules Governing Chairs for Throwing Events". Magni Corps is the Northern California SAAA Club or Branch. There is a direct link to the website I posted under the Clubs tab on the SAAA National website. |
Posted By: Captain Slow
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 4:53pm
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I have came across a couple of games over here where if it clinks the bar its not counted. Lets put it this way if you get it over and it doesnt clink then you know you have cleared it. Knock off is quite simple it falls it doesnt count. On a fixed anything goes I have seen some dodgy clearances given. As long as the rules are given before you start there isnt a problem. ------------- Please, please, please dont f*ck about near or in electricity substations. |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 7:02pm
Omitting Sheaf is Blasphamy!!!! Simple answer to the question is when you take non-throwers or throwers with little experiance and give them the ability to write, sorry...Re-Write rules, you will have a quandry like this... One of many reasons this Organization, term used loosely, was drummed out of Washington State...
------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 7:11pm
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Since we are on the Subject of QM, anyone want to discuss the numerous safety issues? ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: buckcali
Date Posted: 2/19/13 at 10:48pm
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Jay what safety issues? hehehe... Novice throwers are their to brake themselves at the games with a caber that is way to heavy for their cute little arms... Crowd members are a dime a dozen so dropping cabers into them is just added entertainment. A field that was 130x130... (this is approx i didn't measure my tape measure was too big for the field and who has the time to do subtraction these days ) but when an a.m athletic throws a LH 122+ feet and it lands at/ close to the opposite trig and at the feet of the crowd.. well again they are a dime a dozen right?! it was a very fun day... I enjoy every game I go to and always support the association and people involved in any highland game but with rule changes and a field that could not support the number of athletics or an event like LH safely.. ( my opinion only) ..it makes one a little concerned. Brian ------------- Buck http://boostinternetmarketing.com" rel="nofollow - Boost Internet Marketing http://ljtherapy.com/" rel="nofollow - LJ Therapy |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/20/13 at 2:01pm
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I also heard from some non-athletes that while the day was a fun day, the whole event was a lot smaller than past years. Access to the ship was very restricted. Get this... a piper friend wanted to go on the ship to listen to the pipers competitions. There was a guard standing at the top of the ramp telling people that if they went past him, they couldn't come out that way, again. Fine....except that the only other exit off the ship led to a ramp which was outside the Games entrance Gate. OK, so stamp people's hands, so they don't have to pay to get in again. Nope. Wouldn't do it. No hand-stamping unless you're a "participant" like a Clan Tent person, or a vendor, or something. So anybody that went on to the ship to hear the pipers competition, or see the Highland dancers, had to pay TWICE, if they wanted to see the rest of the Festival afterwards. Seriously. Also, my understanding was that the entertainment was significantly less than last year...fewer bands and so on. People said that it was still a nice day, but "off" from previous years. Clearly, there's a budget or commitment issue happening, either from the Queen Mary management or maybe from the Port of Long Beach. NOT THE SAAA's FAULT. No comment on the size of the field or the WOB rule, but for sure 130 x 130 is not big enough to have a light hammer comp. No question, there. Maybe limit the hammers to heavy, only, next year if hammers have to be on the same field, again. The whole site is not optimal for athletics anyway...the central grassy area is not big enough, and the only other option is either to hold all the athletics at the other grassy area, or to split it so that hammers are down there and the other events are on the central field......... but oh my God everybody bitches about THAT, too. 'cause you know, walking five minutes down there, and then back again after your hammers are done is just Too Much Work for a Highland Athlete, and it's disrespectful. Guys bitch, piss and moan if the hammers are a five minute walk away where there's plenty of room for it....but then when the hammers are moved onto the central field, then we have to bitch, piss and moan about the safety issue. Goddamn it, the Queen Mary needs to tear up the parking lot and plant another hundred feet of grass there, for our convenience, because WE are *Highland Athletes*...truly Gods among men. Yeah, dat's right. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: jlmreddog
Date Posted: 2/20/13 at 2:09pm
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Hey Alan for having "No comment on the size of the field" you sure ramble on about it. Bottom line is, it is the responsibility of the people running the event to make sure it is done safely.
------------- John McClure Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm. Abraham Lincoln |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/20/13 at 3:28pm
Let it never be said that if I could make a point in ten words, or belabour it in five hundred, that I took the easy way out!  Personally, if the field was really 130 x 130...which if I remember rightly, is about right, and if I didn't have the option to run the hammers elsewhere because of constraints put on me by dealing with the organization committee, then I would drop the light hammer event. Then again, I wasn't there, and I didn't have to deal with the Queen Mary people, so I'm loathe to pass judgement. I'm not loathe to express an opinion on what I'd do, tho! Heh. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 2/20/13 at 3:33pm
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They tried to charge us for going back in last year. I pretended not to speak moron. ------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: jlmreddog
Date Posted: 2/20/13 at 3:34pm
------------- John McClure Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm. Abraham Lincoln |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/21/13 at 8:57am
I like the Safety in this Pic... Judge in the Kill Zone.... (in a walkin boot so not movin very fast...lol)
 ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/21/13 at 9:44am
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In addition to possibly being the worst place to be in terms of being able to see a foot foul. ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 2/21/13 at 11:42am
I was out training with a buddy of mine a few weeks ago and, like a dummy, standing in the kill zone. Well, he pulled early and lost it out the right side and I ended up taking a 56lb weight to the right wrist and abdomen standing about 6-7 feet away from him. I saw it coming and my only reaction was to brace for impact. My palm took the brunt of the impact. No way could I have gotten out of the way in time. Overall I was fine, but my hand hurt for about 4 days and my 2 year old son had a stronger grip than me in that duration.
With this guy sitting and in a boot, he would be crushed if this happened to him. |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/21/13 at 6:33pm
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Well Im glad you are OK.... Let me tell ya... I was at Enumclaw and Big Al Stagner who is a well seasoned thrower lost the 42 to the side and it collapsed the entire safety fence and bought me time to get my wife out of the way... we standing 25-30 feet away... no fence and i shudder to think of the consequence. Officials need training on the rules, but they need safety training foremost. Protect the Athlete, Judges and Fans... way too many close calls. One fatality and the entire games would be shut down probably for good. No one needs to die while they are enjoying the Highland Games! ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/21/13 at 6:38pm
and here is another example of the White picket Safety fence.... ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: McSanta
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 4:12pm
Although it is hard to say.... another possibility would be to hack 6" off the handle ... the Light hammer would not fly as far. ------------- Mark McVey "The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
Posted By: McSanta
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 4:35pm
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from SAAA's website: Article IX Sanctioning: B. Sanctioning Requirements. The following requirements must be satisfied by any Games to be sanctioned by the Association: 2. Safety. Prior to the desired competition, the Association shall receive adequate assurances that the Heavy Events competition shall be conducted in an atmosphere and environment conducive to the safety of the Athletes, Judges and spectators in attendance at the Games or festival. The Association, at its discretion, may send a representative to inspect the throwing field or area to determine the adequacy of the space provided and the safety precautions implemented. The officials, directors and promoters of the Games or festivals shall be instructed to formulate and implement effective policies of security, crowd control and safety and shall ensure that neither the Heavy Events nor activities accompanying the Games or festivals shall violate any local law, ordinance, or regulation. Satisfaction of these requirements remains the sole discretion of the Association. -------------------- ------------- Mark McVey "The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
Posted By: McSanta
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 4:39pm
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Again, from SAAA's website ( http://www.saaa-net.org/mission.html) they have an interesting mission statement " We are currently expanding out of California north to Portland Oregon and into Washington State and now as far east as Texas where we have a satellite organization set up. We are the bench mark for all others to follow. We are not trying to overtake any existing organization, but to standardize the games for all. We are in need of donations to expand. " I find it very funny that SAAA states "We are not trying to overtake any existing organization" but just prior to that statement brags about where they are expanding and later states they need donations to expand" ------------------------------------------------------- Given this rule change, I also find it funny that they state "standardize the games for all" well I guess if it is their rules, then it is standardized ------------- Mark McVey "The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
Posted By: McSanta
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 4:54pm
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Since I opened up their website, I thought I would do some further reading. One last thing I found on SAAA's website which appears to conflict with their mission statement " to standardize the games for all" was in their Judges stipulations ( Article I. PRECEPTS OF THE JUDGES' COLLEGE Precept I. No SAAA certified judge will judge any other Highland Games event other than those approved, sanctioned, and/or contracted by the SAAA Board of Directors. .... I do not know the west coast politics nor do I care -- but to me it seems that the above precept conflicts with a portion of the organization's mission statement "to standardize the games for all" . I would think lending out their "judges" to other events would help these events gain from their vast knowledge of doing things the SAAA way, which in turn should go towards helping their mission to standardize the games for all. interesting, very interesting. ... glad I am in the Midwest. ------------- Mark McVey "The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
Posted By: McSanta
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 5:00pm
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When a lawsuit occurs because the white picket safety fence does not hold up, I am sure this tread will land in a lawyers lap and be used as evidence in building a claim of negligence --- WTF are they thinking? ------------- Mark McVey "The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 5:33pm
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Satellite organization in Texas? Ummm...which Games is that? ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: Sammy68123
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 8:48pm
Several of the new SAAA rules in the rulebook above are out in left field somewhere:
1. Stone weights—Open suggested: men 16-18#, women 9-11#; Braemar suggested: men 22-24#, women 16-18#. Sure leaves a BIG gap in between the two? The previous specifications were a lot more sensible and kept the women’s at about 1/2 the weight of the mens as is the set-up in WFD/WOB. 2. Hammer weights: 16/22# for men, but 10/16# for women?? WTF? The heavy to light ratio for the men is 1.375, but for women 1.6. Where did they come up with a 10# hammer? At least with 9/12# for women, the heavy to light ratio would be 1.33 and the women’s would be closer to 1/2 the men’s. 3. Sheaf weights: 20# for men, 12# women. I believe they’ve always used 12# for women out there, but why are some weights 1/2 for the women and others not? So why not 10# for women if 20# for men. To their credit, they endorse the master’s convention of 16# for men and 8# for women. I don’t expect to be throwing in SAAA's neck of the woods since they're outside my personal travel radius. But it sure makes you wonder where the heck they came up with these numbers. At least they put in a 21# WFD/WOB for women masters. ------------- Teresa Merrick Bellevue, NE |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 9:50pm
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Guys, those photographs were taken by Jaena Imboden...though some might have been taken by Sharon MacDonald. She was almost certainly standing all the way across the field, as....unlike most of the people commenting in this thread....I've actually been at these Games, and I know where they set up and what the layout is. Jaena/Sharon were probably 120-130 feet away from the subjects. That means that they used a telephoto lens to get these shots. In fact, I KNOW that Jaena uses a long lens because I've seen her gear. ....and THAT means that the depth of the photograph is foreshortened. Telephoto lenses do that. It's just how they work. People and fences in the background look a lot closer to the throwers in these shots than they actually are. I understand that some of you just HATE the SAAA but in this case, putting up pictures like this and using them for "evidence" ain't working. Were the judges and crowd too close to the throwers? Maybe so...but these photographs don't prove it. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: Old Dude
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 11:05pm
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Q: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? A: Well, I think so, Brain, but if Jimmy cracks corn, and nobody cares, why does he keep doing it? ------------- Over Fork Over |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/23/13 at 11:34pm
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I don't see anyone hating on the SAAA here. I see people hating on incompetence and buffoonery. ---------------------- A: I sure am, Brain, but where are we gonna find a tattoo parlor open at this time of night? ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: Big Ed
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 3:53am
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Hey Alan in the first picture it's the judge sitting in the "kill zone"...not standing and surely can't escape at all with the boot on (having worn one for 10 months I can tell you you ain't going anywhere very fast) and in the second picture it's the spectators that are way too close to the thrower. In both it is those safety problems being commented on and not anything said about the photographers and where they were positioned. I've competed a few times in SAAA games and had fun back then throwing in them I really don't get into the politics of any organization but as an AD of a good size games as well as competing in quite a few games all over (hence the Travelocity Gnome comments besides them being jealous of my height!!) I recognize the safety issues in the pictures. ------------- www.playhardtrainharder.com |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 4:06am
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Where will we find rubber pants in our sizes? So, does anyone have any idea which Games in Texas the SAAA is sanctioning? No hate here, just curious. ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: stormer
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 7:29am
| Old days at tomintoul games no cage and crowd 20 feet to your near side , no pressure to hook one left!! |
Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 12:26pm
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McSanta – It is important to note that the mission statement you posted is from the old SAAA website and was written several years ago. That mission is vastly out of date; the SAAA has no presence in Pacific Northwest anymore. As for the satellite in Texas, it was a chicken that was counted before it hatched. SAAA-national.org is the site they currently use. Carlos is right; this is not people hating the SAAA. We are simply questioning their lack of judgment, grandiose mission statements, hard-handed Judging edicts, and completely asinine rule set. |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 2:37pm
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Questioning judgement, mission statements, rule sets... that's all fine. I have no problem with discussing that stuff or criticizing it, carry on. Making a call -"that's unsafe"- based on a photograph or two or three taken from over 100 feet away with a telephoto lens, which makes objects in the picture appear much closer together than they actually were, not to mention that you don't know the angle from which it was shot....NOT OK. That's all I'm saying. 'nuff said. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 5:17pm
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That's your opinion Alan but many of the folks discussing these pictures were THERE so I think I'll defer to their judgments of a field they were on over your opinions about the optical properties of zoom lenses. Incidentally, I was at a Monterey Games meeting last week and some of our piping folks who were at QM told me that the athletics were unsafe when they walked past (they spoke of several events including a caber that nearly crushed some spectators). When piping folks (who were just watching as spectators themselves) are taking notice, there's a problem. ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 5:45pm
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Well since I posted those photos I will answer this.... Telephoto lens...seriously? It doesnt distort the background It brings the entire image closer...thats all. That judge is in the Kill zone...Im pretty sure the photogragher didnt airbrush out the safety fence and airbrush a walkin boot onto the judge.... There is no excuse for unsafe conditions. If that picket fence is 35-40 feet behind thrower...which it it isnt, its still too damn close! My intention is to bring awareness to how unsafe these games have become! Im not bashing anyone. I was hoping to increase awareness last year when I sent the picket fence photo to the leadership of SAAA and recieved no response. They also did not bring stones last year and took the handles off throwing weights and used them as Stones. Vegas 2012... 30+ cabers up in the air with no safety margin behind the athletes. Onlookers could reach out and touch the athletes. My point... These are the things that will get a games shut down! Hurt, Mame, or God forbid kill a spectator... Games Sued and probably wont recover and all other games will be under strict scrutiny! As ambassadors of these games we need to represent ourselves professionally and responsibly or we will start looking like the SCA....
------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/24/13 at 11:18pm
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Carlos. - Brian definitely expressed concern about safety. Adam did not, he asked about the WOB rule. I trust Brians judgement, so I would gather that there were issues, but he's the only person in this thread who saw them. Jay.- You're wrong about telephoto lenses. Just plain wrong. I could show you a thousand examples online, as well as photographs that I've taken, but this will do. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/telephoto-lenses.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/telephoto-lenses.htm I want to get this straight, the last time I'm going to write this. There might have been safety issues at Queen Mary. I wasn't there, I don't know. Maybe the pipers that Carlos knows are right. There could have been safety issues. Brian says things weren't right, so clearly something wasn't right. I'm not saying that there weren't safety issues. What I do know is that pointing to pictures shot with a telephoto lens, and looking at the apparent relative distances between objects in the shot, and saying "that's unsafe" is unsound because of how telephoto lenses alter the apparent depth of field of the shot. That's it, that's all I'm saying. I've now written this three times, and I'm sick of it. If you guys can't read something that simple, then it's not my issue. I will also say that the photographs I saw last year of the in-the-mall 30-caber-challenge at Las Vegas made me sick to my stomach from the clear and obvious danger to the crowd. I'm 100% with you on that one, Jay. One lost caber over someones shoulder would have hurt 4-5-6 or more people. I VERY MUCH HOPE that the SAAA athletic directors and Las Vegas folks don't repeat that nightmare, this year. Also, if I were asked to be a part of such a display, and I saw that it was set up like that, I would refuse, and raise hell. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: jlmreddog
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 12:30am
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Foe Fooks sake just fookin'g stand sometimes!!! ------------- John McClure Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm. Abraham Lincoln |
Posted By: West
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 2:38am
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As I was there, I would like to clear a few things up. I am the fat guy in the background of the first photo. Both of the photos uploaded do NOT provide a clear view of the throwing conditions. That judge was NOT in the kill zone. He sat BEHIND and to the left of the trig (if looking at the trig from the throwing field). In the second photo, the trig was placed a minimum 10' out from the fence. I am not discounting the idea that a weight could fly backwards, but if it did, it would likely be thrown straight into the ground due to the current position of the weight in its orbit at the time of release. Field size was larger than 130x130. There was 138' between the hammer trig and the trig directly opposite, with some field to spare on either side of the trigs. Understanding that that is still tight, that trig was NOT IN USE when the LH was flying. We also made a point of continuously keeping up crowd awareness regarding said field size and hammer throwing. And on a small side rant, court precedent has shown assumption of risk on the part of a spectator when they watch us compete. So sue sue sue. Now, as to the rule changes, I went on record with certain individuals as opposed to them. I think these rules undermine the idea of the standardization these same people crave. Last, can't anyone go and just enjoy a day of throwing with their friends, like Mr. Austin? Or is it the consensus that we tear everything apart and detail what sucked about it? ------------- Drink to the fame of it, honor the name of it, The Tartan. |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 8:40am
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well, I guess that answers it then.... The kill zone is no where near the judge in the photo because when we lose weights they just fall to the ground.... I guess the 42 that knocked down the entire saftey fence at enunclaw and came out at the 3 o'clock position was a freak accident.
My intent is not to flame anyone but to make people aware in general that there are major safety issues that other AD's may pick up on and say hey...I need to change that as well....
Regardless of all the Bull crap about telephoto lenses and wpicket fences there is one imutible point... YOU NEED TO HAVE A SAFTEY FENCE FOR WFD IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ADEQUATE DISTANCE FROM SPECTATORS OF THROWERS ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: West
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 10:24am
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The reasoning that that the judge isn't in the kill zone due to the position of the weight not only does not make sense, but that isn't what I said. The judge was not in the kill zone, end of story. He was behind the trig. ------------- Drink to the fame of it, honor the name of it, The Tartan. |
Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 11:44am
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If your vast and numerous years of experience as AD make you feel confident that your experienced Judge was in a safe spot, then nothing we say is going to change your mind. However this is a forum: a place for the discussion of questions of public interest. In this case there is clearly a segment of the Highland Games public that has questions in regards to the safety of the Queen Mary field. Disregard the photos posted, the fact is numerous individuals have raised the issue of unsafe throwing conditions on the field. Some of those individuals have posted here, many more have spoken outside of this forum to fellow athletes, other AD's and Judges. Ignore that fact if you choose, but where there is smoke there is generally fire.
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Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 12:07pm
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Absolutely Kaelyne! And as a reminder She has run Portland for many years... Pro Class, Masters, All amateur classes, women and Novice in 1 day with a perfect safety record! and FYI the Kill zone has no definitive boundrys but some places are worse then others... and this guy is sitting between 3 and 4 o'clock...SITTING... telephoto lens wont move people around in the picture despite Alans expertise ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 12:52pm
| I've never been to Queen Mary but I know West tries to do the best with what he has...the field is small and from what I've heard dangerous both for athlete's and spectators. West, "sue,sue,sue", will not bring back someone killed by an implement; no one wants to have that happen. My two cents... get better fencing, limit the number of competitors to suit the field size and get a judge that doesn't have to sit down by the trig. |
Posted By: james fraser
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 2:11pm
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I competed at the QM games and that was one of the two judges we had. Joe was seated about 6-7 ft from the rear of the trig and approximately the same distance to the right of a right hand thrower. Casey the second judge was watching for fouls and foot fouls on the left side of the trig. As far as safety for the hammers the announcer(Francis Brebner) would alert the crowd as well as the athletes when hammers were being thrown. There were no close calls as I can remember with anyone getting hit by any weights or hammers. This is my first post and is not intended to argue,just to state what I saw firsthand. ------------- Jim Fraser |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 2:18pm
Thank you. That's all I ask for in this discussion. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: Captain Slow
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 2:50pm
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Last year there was an incident at Skye with one of the hammers being hooked out of the throwing area and landing at a dancing tent/stall which made local news. At Gordon Castle games last year (one of Hamish's at the time) the light hammer was let go a smidge early and hit an area where the crowd were standing. Some games that used to have the hammer now no longer have it due to insurance/size of ground etc. There is also the usual nonsense over here that when the hammer ends up being thrown the crowd fun races are almost always on and invariably kids fly to the gathering point without a care in the world which usually means going through the throwing sector. The hammer is the event that is most likely to badly hurt someone. I know from experience, I have had the misfortune of the hammer hitting someone where it bust through the protective cage, burst through the tug of war tent and hit a large woman in the back and I have seen judges/competitors get hit around the killzone despite the cage. I didnt do another games for about 4 years after that incident and I still have the heebies with the hammer when somone walks close by to me. Even the 28 I have let it go early and seen others do the same.
The point I am getting at is that it is becoming increasingly necessary to ensure that adequate measures are put in place (cages/netting/adequate distance between events/timing of different events) and also to ensure that those competing are knowledgable enough to keep themselves and others out of danger.
When I started throwing I was always told to never turn your back on someone taking a throw. ------------- Please, please, please dont f*ck about near or in electricity substations. |
Posted By: stormer
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 3:07pm
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It's common sence and down to officials being in control of Who enters the throwing arena, run by amateurs without proper throwing knowledge Then you have a problem.. I I'm sure the death percentage compares well with most other spectator sports... |
Posted By: West
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 3:11pm
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Steve, I am in no way suggesting that I am ok with crowd related injuries, or injuries at all. That little side rant was simply in response to someone mentioning law suits earlier in the conversation. We are on the same page with that one. And the picket fencing I believe was not something we had control over. It was what the festival provided. Frankly I am all for us moving the athletes to a much larger field located not too far from the event. It is separated from the festival a bit, but everyone would have ample space. It is a field we used in the past, and those running the festival have slowly corralled us into the small field we used this year. Queen. That is fine, I hear and understand the safety concerns. I had some myself, but I am not arguing that there were no safety concerns. I care about the athletes on my field and made use with what i had. And for all the safety arguments voiced, not one person was hurt. Injury is a possibility that EVERYONE faces at any games. I am pointing out that a legitimate argument cannot be made based off of a viewpoint given in a photo. I do not appreciate someone voicing their criticism of a games that they did NOT attend. In regards to the original point of the thread, I'd be happy to sign a petition to help convince those in charge to undue the rule changes if that interests anybody. But as I've mentioned, I had my go at convincing them and failed miserably. ------------- Drink to the fame of it, honor the name of it, The Tartan. |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 3:48pm
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Despite the antagonistic tone and dependence on photographs taken with equipment which distorts the perspective of the viewing area, this discussion is making me re-evaluate the safety of the Games that I AD, myself every year. I think I will be moving the crowd control barrier back from the weight throws, stone throws and hammer cage another 10 feet this year, so the crowd will be about 30 feet away from the back of the trigs and cage. I need to patrol the space off to the right of the weight throw area a bit more closely as well, because I have no way of preventing people from walking into it from the back, aside from signage. Also, I will add another length of welded wire fencing to the hammer cage, and overlap the current layers, in addition to wiring them together. That will bring it from just under 6 feet tall to about 8 1/2 feet tall. I already get occasional comments about how "close" the cage is, but in the interests of safety, I'm going to keep it the way it is...less likely for a hammer to get away. Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, the Living History section will be smaller this year and I expect no need for extra space for them for swordplay, so I can add another 20 feet of length and 10 feet of width to my caber area, making it 60 x 130..maybe even 140 We'll have a crowd control rope/banners outlining the area, like last year, and that's plenty of room. I've also thought about the risk of having the sheaf uprights collapse forward into the crowd, so will be moving the crowd control barrier back in that area, as well. All of this is good. No audience member is going to get hurt by an implement at MY Games, fuhgeddit. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 3:54pm
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West - I'm glad no one (athlete, spectator, judge, or volunteer) was injured. Since you agree that there were safety concerns, thank goodness lady luck was on your side. As for the rule changes - it really only matters to SAAA members and those who compete at SAAA sanctioned games. Since this discussion has started, the new rules are now posted for everyone to see on the SAAA website. So athletes are now aware of what to expect at the 8 or so SAAA run games. One would assume that the SAAA communicated the proposed rule changes and reason behind them with their membership, but I don't know as I'm not a member. I agree with you that it undermine's the SAAA goal of standardization, which calls into question why make the changes in the first place. In the end it doesn't affect me in anyway; I don't use SAAA rules at the games I run, and don't compete at SAAA events.
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Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 3:59pm
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I spent some time working out how long and wide a caber throwing area ought to be. Figure that your average caber is 16 feet long. Lots of guys pick a caber and have to take 3-4 steps back to correct the balance. so the picking area has to be at least 4 steps x 3 feet per step = 12 feet, plus the length of the caber...16 feet. That's 28 feet. Call it 30. No crowd person can be closer than 30 feet to the base of caber picking area, measuring directly behind the athlete, and adding 10 more feet would be better!. Width.... it's easy to pick a 16 foot caber, and then weave around 3-4 steps to one side before dumping it. It's the same measurement as above. No crowd person can be within 30 feet of the caber-picking area. Since an athlete can lose a caber off to either side, that means that 60 feet is about the minimum width for a caber-throwing area. Let's say the athlete starts out 40 feet from the back limit-line/fence/crowd barrier. They pick the caber, and don't step back to control it. Now they advance 10 steps forward, which is more run-up than most take, but reasonable. That's 60 feet, if you assume 3-foot steps which is probably too big. It's actually probably more like 50 feet. Chuck the caber, it lands 20 feet in front of the athlete and then goes straight over for a 12:00....that's 16 more feet. Add it up. I get about 126 feet. It'd be nice to not have the caber land an inch in front of the crowds faces, so add 10 more feet. 136 Last year I had 50 x 110, delineated with stakes and a crowd control rope. I'll feel a lot better with 60 x 130 or 140. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 4:13pm
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West Im not bashing you or your games.... I know you do your best with whats given to you. But dont completely disregard photos. You know as well as anyone if a Weight slips out and there is no cage...that judges is hurt or dead.
You as AD have control of safety measures and you can make sure there are adequate safety fences placed around the back and side of the trig... there is no such thing as too much when it comes to safety fence! Im just suggesting that you and other AD's can see these issues and stop them from happening year after year...until its too late.
YOU have the power to stop the game at anytime and fix problems. ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: feefiefofeather
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 5:12pm
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All questions about new SAAA rule changes should be directed to Justin Rosa, Chief Justice with the SAAA, as he was the author of the revised 2013 rulebook. He can be found here: mailto:MCTSAAA@GMAIL.COM" rel="nofollow - MCTSAAA@GMAIL.COM
------------- Literature is strewn with the wreckage of men who have minded beyond all reason the opinions of others. |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 5:28pm
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Thanks Heather, for getting us back on track here about the stupid WOB rule..
lol
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Posted By: w00st3r
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 5:55pm
first of all, ^ this athlete is a stud, whoooo boy! anyway, out on the west coast women have used a 10lb sheaf bag for as long as i remember. granted i havent been throwing as long as some of 'seasoned' peoples here. hammers for them have always been 12/16 as long as i remember also. the 21 was created recently for womens masters class which doesnt effect me in any way shape or form, but i think thats cool. vegas: the cabers were something like 14ft and 45lbs, and I KNOW accidents can happen and I personally would prefer not to have people around so close to this crazy event, each athlete went through a selection process and was tested on the 'pics' and the 'hold' of the little show winning caber. still, there is a safety issue there and someone CAN get hurt. but i suppose i 'COULD' walk out of my house and get hit by a bus... the main rant: thank you Queen K for posting the quoted rule change. after reading that... it seems like theres 2 set ups, then one becomes the other... WHY THE HELL EVEN HAVE 2 different setups if they become the same thing. we dont need rules in case of variation, just fix the bar and go fixed bar rules, or take the damn thing back down, but ropes on it and go knock off bar. the field was small. that much we know. the AD didnt order the field, or set up the agreement with the venue, he simply directed the athletes, hence the term AD. things went in order, and smooth. we didnt run early or late and had no missed events. somewhere along the line the AD was doing his job, and no body got hurt. the weather was good, the crowd was good, overall it was a good event. a little fly by the safety seat of your pants, but it was a good event. ive been to games with smaller fields and the SHA does the appropriate thing, and cuts the most imposing event, usually light hammer. or if time drags, sheaf. thats the appropriate thing to do. either way im not an AD or official of any kind so i dont have any experience with running a game. there is a side field for those who have never been there. it is about 100yards or more away from the actual ship. the split location is best for safety and athletes. the thing that sucks is for the spectators. they want to come watch the games, but they want to see the historical landmark as well. and walking over and seeing the 'festival' takes time, and they dont want to miss their sons/daughters/friends/lovers/love slaves/master/dom... woah wait. but you get the picture. geez, that was a Alan post if i ever made one. expect all other posts to be 10 words or less.
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Posted By: The Queen
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 5:56pm
Which looks like it's been altered. The Fixed Bar rules now state: (See the first page of this thread to see what the wording was originally) In the Weight Over the Bar, the implement must not hit the bar in such a way as to cause it to vibrate violently, doing so counts as a knocked off bar. Some glancing is permitted provided the bar vibrates only minimally, the bar may not count as knocked off in this case at the Judge’s discretion SAAA Judge = Violent Vibration Detection Expert |
Posted By: Borges
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 6:03pm
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As to the picture. The distance is immaterial. The southwest quadrant is the kill zone with a right handed thrower. If the judge was far enough away to be safe, then he wasn't close enough to judge a foot foul. Moreover, no judge should ever be seated in any event other than WOB (standing), and certainly not one that is operating with a physical impairment. That picture tells all REGARDLESS of distances. We're all impressed by Alan's knowledge of telephoto lenses (not so much with his apparent lack of understanding that basically everyone here already knows that). Look at the PICTURE. That configuration is unsafe. Period. As a judge, the proper place to be on WFD with a right handed thrower is to the left of the trig, roughly even with the back line, standing, and fully ready to move quickly and warn others if something goes wrong. You also need to be close enough to look at the implement briefly before the beginning of each throw to make sure there are no obvious problems. Safe, effective judging doesn't just happen it takes thought and preparation. ------------- Cheers, Carlos "Live free or die" |
Posted By: Alan H
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 6:26pm
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Oh, screw it. To get back to the WOB rule..... Thanks for the contact information, Heather. ------------- Alan Hebert Geezer-In-Training |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 6:47pm
FRONT STREET!!! ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 6:50pm
Thank you Carlos... I was begining to wonder if it was bizarro world and no one knew where the actual kill zone was  ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: bigirish01
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 7:02pm
Justin Rosa wrote it? Ahhhhh.... now it all makes sense to me...carry on...lol ------------- Jay "Big Daddy" O'Neill |
Posted By: w00st3r
Date Posted: 2/25/13 at 8:21pm
and that being the case, i spun a 12' wob (dont laugh i know it sucks) and it barely knicked the bar. wouldnt have knocked off a knock off bar. buuuuuuut guess who my judge was... right. and what about all the other athletes that would have been safe at 15 or 16. none of those counted either. so the next question is: rules can just be created on the fly? every time we go to saaa games now do we have to wonder what new rules are going to be in effect? when will it stop. im sure i could ramble but this is already more than 10 words.
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Posted By: WALLY.OLECIK
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 5:54am
Well, l am a member and l had no knowledge of the rule changes until l read about them in this thread! ------------- 16lb-hammer(at)sshga.org "Try not. Do or do not. There is no 'try!'" Yoda |
Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 9:11am
| Wally, it looks like you need to petition the Chief Justice... |
Posted By: jlmreddog
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 10:47am
So the most objectively judged event, arguably, is now judged subjectively in SAAA games? The weight goes over or it doesn't, I don't think we need to hear from the Russian judge about the bar's vibration...
------------- John McClure Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm. Abraham Lincoln |
Posted By: Wayne Hill
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 10:58am
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I'd rather judge the clean and press than how hard a bar is vibrating. ------------- "We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby |
Posted By: rob meulenberg
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 11:00am
Even with your and mine physics and engineering skills, I still would not want to tackle that mess! ------------- www.sportkilt.com |
Posted By: Wayne Hill
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 11:07am
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Fortunately, there's no need to! ------------- "We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 11:09am
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Easy schmeezy..
hook up an earthquake meter detector thinggy to the bar..
if the needle moves more than 2" its no good..
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Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 11:20am
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This thread is awesome. From my quick read, Carlos is winning it by a large margin. ------------- |
Posted By: feefiefofeather
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 12:57pm
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Here is a copy of the most recent rule set, FYI. Unless it's been changed again since I received it a few hours ago, this is the most recent version. http://magnicorps.com/Forms/SAAA%20Rules%20Governing%20The%20Highland%20Games.pdf ------------- Literature is strewn with the wreckage of men who have minded beyond all reason the opinions of others. |
Posted By: jlmreddog
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 5:48pm
------------- John McClure Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm. Abraham Lincoln |
Posted By: Lance Creed
Date Posted: 2/26/13 at 11:14pm
lol, wut? Nothing against the guy, but Chief Justice? Really? ------------- http://creedbrewing.com" rel="nofollow - Creed Brewing http://kiltedlance.tumblr.com" rel="nofollow - Kilted Lance |
Posted By: Soul Eater
Date Posted: 2/27/13 at 12:25am
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Basing a rule on the length of a vibration. Not so sure that one will catch on or be adopted by other organizations. So back to this rule, it's irritating because it wastes time, it makes people upset it goes against giving the athlete the benefit, it's arbitrary, it's subjective, it's harsh, mean and nasty. Weight over the bar comes towards the end of the day and so you drive home pissed if you made the bar vibrate. No one wants to lose like that it's like being robbed or even violated. Why not just go to a knock off bar to avoid conflict. Oh yeah, I forgot, knock off bar's are expensive and it wastes time. Vibrating bar says YOUR NOT WELCOME, DENIED, loud and clear. Dumb rule I was thinking what could be worse than this rule, WOB with a knock off bar, here it is, wait for it....if the bar hops up and then lands back on it's pin sets, it's a foul. Because the bar actually did get knocked off it's holding place, it just happened to land in the same position it started from, due to the fact that gravity and the bars rope attachments at each end of the bar, helped to swing the bar back towards the uprights because people were holding on to the rope and did not let loose once the weight hit the bar therefore making it a foul. Therefore this was not an act of God and becomes a foul.
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Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 2/27/13 at 2:49am
Facepalm... Well played JLMReddog. ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: Wayne Hill
Date Posted: 2/27/13 at 8:37am
Oh, I could do it a lot better than that. But I wouldn't: I don't want to do anything that will damage the Highland Games. To everyone: have you ever tried WFH tossed in the traditional manner? Hang a basket and see if the athletes can hit it with the weight. That's a lot of fun. A non-vibrating knock-off bar? Not so much. ------------- "We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 2/27/13 at 9:56am
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Hooray for New England games and their non-subjective WOB related nonsense! ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: Steve Conway
Date Posted: 2/27/13 at 10:33am
| Please don't equate the SHA and the rest of the West and Northwest with the stupidity of the SAAA rules...in reality they really don't affect many games. Wayne, some years ago at a Ren Fair we threw the wt/ht at a suspended barrel top...fun |