Cleans
Printed From: Nasgaweb
Category: Nasgaweb Forums
Forum Name: Training
Forum Discription: This forum is for discussion about training for the Scottish Heavy Events.
URL: http://www.nasgaweb.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15760
Printed Date: 3/26/26 at 10:26pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.11 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Cleans
Posted By: Nathan Parker
Subject: Cleans
Date Posted: 10/21/12 at 11:27am
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Whats the difference between cleans and power cleans? Which should I be doing? I apoligize in advance if this has been discussed before. Thanks! ------------- Sport Kilt JDJ Caber Company Hylete.com |
Replies:
Posted By: Jason Cherry
Date Posted: 10/21/12 at 3:48pm
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A clean you pull from the floor and catch in a full squat. With a power clean you dip a little for the catch. ------------- "Example is the best precept." ~ Aesop |
Posted By: Srokus
Date Posted: 10/23/12 at 7:50pm
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IMO throwers should do power cleans, but really the catch is insignificant if you are just worried about carryover to your throws. I even would say high pulls would suffice. Save the wrists. ------------- The competitor to be feared is not the one who worries about others, but the one who goes on making their business better at all times... www.thestrengthagenda.com |
Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 7:14am
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Catch in squat = clean or snatch
Catch above parallel = power version
Hang = starts above the floor
Pulls = no catch
And Tommy is 100% right. You never need to catch anything as a thrower. Always pitch. Then you just like to party.
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Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 9:45am
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I mostly agree about the relative unimportance of the catch and therefore the total acceptability of High Pulls, but I personally find performing Cleans with a catch results in a better, crisper movement IF you can do them without any wrist issues. I would also note that for those without an actual wrist "issue", most of the time wrist pain/problems result from trying to catch a clean you have not pulled high enough. If that is the case, the solution is to reduce the weight slightly, not necessarily resort to just doing High Pulls (again, not that there is anything wrong with that). When performing High Pulls, check your ego and make sure you are pulling the bar UP to the desired height, vs. pulling your torso DOWN to meet the bar in a sort of "Power Row". Another thing to note is that Power Snatches, especially Clean-Grip Hang Snatches, are very easy on the wrists (and the Clean-Grip version is very easy on the shoulders too). ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 12:00pm
Duuuuuuuuude. Come on. ------------- ...Josh |
Sean wrote:Posted By: Nathan Parker
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 12:54pm
I'll take the advice of an Olympic hopeful. Thanks man! ------------- Sport Kilt JDJ Caber Company Hylete.com |
Posted By: chirolifter
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 5:29pm
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I prefer to do the full power clean. As Peter said it just allows crisper move, then I do pulls after. However I do feel that "high" pulls are not good for throwers. In a high pull you have to bend the elbows, which as everyone knows is a really bad habit to get into for throwing.. Just do a regular shrug pull with straight arms and just throw the hips, and shrug.. My do agree with Tom on not catching also. The risk outweighs the benefits if you jam a wrist. So I do cleans like Chemerkin.. Who by the way did a 262.5 CJ.. ------------- "It's what you do when no one is watching that builds character." Gene Flynn |
Posted By: chirolifter
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 5:29pm
 No chance in jamming your wrist.. ------------- "It's what you do when no one is watching that builds character." Gene Flynn |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 5:43pm
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Ya'll forgot football power cleans! catch em high on almost straight spread out legs - and when your shoulders go - high pulls. Like Geno - for us - hi pulls as wide as possible is functional. Matt Sanford did all pulls wide and he didn't suck at all. the power part from the floor was our deads.
------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: Juli Peterson
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 6:14pm
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There shouldn't be much (if any) wrist pain in a power clean if you are racking the bar correctly. If you're racking it incorrectly, well, your bad. The benefit of a power clean v. a high pull is that you will commit to the explosiveness needed to rack the weight. Explosiveness is beneficial to throwing...yes? And please don't "catch 'em high on almost straight spread out legs.' It cuts off the pull and is unsightly. jp
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Posted By: brandell
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 6:42pm
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I would THINK (and I usually get in trouble for doing that...) the Power clean from the floor with little knee bend in the catch, would carry over more to what a thrower needs. |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 7:03pm
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Juli! Been doing em for 30 years that way...350 last year at 52 and a couple old fart world records - don't knock what works for others  unsightly is probably correct tho! takes waaay too much time to teach proper tech to football players - ask valenti. ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: Srokus
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 7:08pm
Don't take my word just because of that. All the points brought up here are valid. Before I trained with glenn I use to clean like Gene is talking about. It works well. Exepriement with different things and see what works for you. ------------- The competitor to be feared is not the one who worries about others, but the one who goes on making their business better at all times... www.thestrengthagenda.com |
Posted By: Juli Peterson
Date Posted: 10/24/12 at 9:03pm
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Whoa. Did I "knock what's working for others?" I explained my position. If it works for some doing it inefficiently, fine. Go ahead. Dropping in a wide, straight legged stance prevents you from finishing the pull. I don't recall how that's coming after you, or anyone, directly? I apologize if I'm missing something. As for hitting big numbers in advanced years, I'm all for it. I'm 45 and expect to hit PR's for quite some time. But I'll attempt to be as efficient as possible in doing so therefore I wouldn't teach it otherwise. If others choose not to, go ahead. I didn't knock it (well, other than the unsightly comment which could be construed as "knocking" it if someone were oversensitive.) And I'm not getting into some weird interwebz argument on how to teach the clean and getting Valenti involved. I've met him once, he AND Erin were very kind to me and I don't roll that way. Cool? jp
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Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 5:31am
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+1 to Juli. No spread legs on cleans or snatches. The potential for injury (not even mentioning the efficacy of the movement) is greatly increased that way. Just cause it works for you Mike, doesn't mean it's optimal.  And for the record, it is unsightly.  ------------- |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 5:35am
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...........................I have no words. ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 7:28am
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So that's what Jake looks like when he does cleans ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: Duncan McCallum
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 7:33am
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OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!!!! ------------- The man in the arena. |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 7:47am
------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 8:28am
------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 8:32am
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Yup. I call 'em cleanjacks when I see people on this board (and elsewhere) doing that, lol. ------------- |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 9:44am
No disrespect to Mike (of course), but other than chasing a number what is the point of doing a clean in this fashion? For the purpose of any sort of performance training, it would be MUCH better, and safer, to take 5-10 kg off the bar and just pull it higher so you do not have to spread your feet much at all. As a thrower, or really any kind of athlete, the whole point of Power Cleans is to train vertical explosiveness. If you want to jack up the weight do straight-arm pulls like Gene suggested. Or do both for the best of both worlds if you like. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 10:08am
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I agree and I have argued that very same point on this forum before.
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Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 11:00am
lolwtf?
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Posted By: Sean
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 11:07am
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The cleanjack style is like doing extremely high box jumps, IMHO. Sure, you got there but what did you accomplish?
Lower box, landing straight legged.
Lighter weight clean, fast fast fast bar speed and nearly straight leg catch.
Or pull your knees up hard and splay your ankles, knees and hips out to make a height or weight.
Doesn't seem like rocket surgery to me.
And Mike, dude. Most of us could NEVER survive a decade plus in the NFL, throwing BOMBS into your 50s and still walk like a human. You, sir, are a goal to aim for. NOT a template to pattern after :) You're a special and unique snowflake, man. And I mean that in the very best way :)
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Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 11:30am
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jp - totally cool - I hesitated to say anything 'cause there are many paths to the top of the mountain. I was taught this by Dana LeDuc - 12 years at UT and 20 in the NFL . He said " I don't have time to teach a 100 fball players how to do em right - let's get to work and get strong ". This summer me and 5 sixteen year olds did these and incline and sqt and arms and core 3x's a week . And they are all starters this year with big traps. Seemed to work. agreed that we all should do perfect oly style lifts , BUT I have never ever been able to do the front sqt catch - it actually terrifies me to try it w even 135 - must be the creaky knees - but i couldn't do it at 20 either. Plus , - from the fball side - that "unsightly " technique sure looks like a player planting and spreading feet to gain lower leverage and 6 inch punch someone and the arms reverse curl is exactly how you should have tight hands and elbows and win the "who's hands are inside battle" Sean - I think what you accomplish w this is the high rep short burst action of fighting to block someone or NOT get blocked by someone. NOT being a better lifter fo sho. And you're making me blush. Unsightly and functional imo. Yes = Peter - sometimes it's just that - how much weight can I yank, curl and hip pop to the chin. I love cleans(jacks : ) - only reason I commented. Gonna do em this afternoon - gonna be unsightly ........and fun! ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 11:53am
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Mike, 1) No thrower really needs to do "perfect oly style lifts", that is catching cleans and snatches in a full squat, and you certainly should not be learning these for the first time when you are over 40-something and/or have bad knees. 2) Just a question to a football superstar from someone who never played much at all: Why is that position (legs straightish, weight back on heels, torso leaning back a bit) superior for football to the "proper" Power Clean catch position (legs in a quarter or half squat, weight forward, torso inclined forward)? The "cleanjack" catch position seems like a very easy position from which to get blasted onto your butt. Compared to a forward leaning half-squat, you are halfway there already. Really, just asking, because I must be missing something. 3) Seems like the straight-arm pull from the hang would be a better movement when you want to just yank a big weight. Big weight, big explosion, triple extension, no nonsense. ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:04pm
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P- ok , this guys(in video) legs are wider and straighter than I like - I teach a tighter more sitting back 1/4 position and he needs to keep shoulder back. Fball is played in a 1/4 sqt and is about fast feet being put on the ground just in time to create a power position to bust someones chops JUST before they bust yours. All I really care about is that they pop hips , keep back arched and take the power of the hips into the arms - just as they would take the hip drive power into a tight lifting chest punch. ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:18pm
Not to drag this out, but this sounds like a straight-arm pull to me... ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:23pm
Am I incorrect in believing that you have earned the title of "crossfit extraordinaire"? Lolololololol ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:27pm
GD CRAIG!!!!!!
 lmao
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Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:29pm
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you know what they say.. a man can build a thousand bridges but suck one....
well... a couple of 500m rows earned me the title
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Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:36pm
hahahahaha, this board is my playground.
Surely you aren't attributing their success to a particular exercise when you took 5 teenagers, made them stronger, and shockingly they got better? Please say that wasn't the point of that sentence. ------------- |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 12:46pm
I bet he also taught them a bit about actually playing football, and I am assuming the tutelage of a former long-time NFL starter probably helped these high school players a bit relative to their competition? ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:17pm
Smiff - of course not - you know me better than that. Stop smirking And you of anyone should remember that stronger equals better in tossing( w same level of technique) BUT not in fball. Think how many BIG STRONG GUYs you ran circles around on the field. I think the political season has us all "fact checking" simple comments that mean little more than 3 seconds of typing . I can understand why people lurk on forums - open your mouth CASUALLY and have to rush and defend something that lacks any real importance. And yes - what Peter said - lifting (how ever you like to do it) is only a part of the whole. I don't teach lifting - I teach fball. I could have made you an animal Smiff. And this goofy lift -aren't they called Hungarian Hi pulls? Done better than the cfit guy of course. Disclaimer! Everything I ever say is just fun w a smile on my face and love in my heart. ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: CHAD
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:29pm
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Chemerkin cleaned that way for a number of reasons. And almost every one of those reasons is delicious.
------------- ...Josh |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:29pm
In another time my friend, we could have done it big! ------------- |
Posted By: stonethrower
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:29pm
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This is something I am working on this off season. The major goal for the off season is to work on technique and flexibility so that I will be able to produce Craig Smith approved lifts. Especially cleans. I built a platform and got bumpers just for this reason. Check the ego, drop the weight and do it right. ------------- John Davis |
Posted By: C. Smith
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:31pm
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That Craig Smith guy is old crabby washed-up has been. Don't worry about what he thinks. I would love to be able to do a proper clean, but something about old dogs and new tricks I think. ------------- |
Posted By: Pingleton
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:32pm
Not quite the same thing, but yes. However, the "done better" aspect is rather significant  : http://youtu.be/H0rn_pSRv_0" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/H0rn_pSRv_0 The Hungarian version is typically caught on the final rep, but whatever. See below, specifically starting at 2:13 (and Mike, check out the Clean Pulls performed on a Universal Machine Bench Press at 1:23): http://youtu.be/O9EqhhCIuBQ" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/O9EqhhCIuBQ ------------- We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw |
Posted By: TheJeff696
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 1:41pm
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Craig, you are a sneaky, funny man. I presume you know what I am talking about love this site. ------------- Jeff Kaste "I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 4:18pm
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OK! Went off to see how to fix this lift to make it more thrower friendly/functional. Widend hands for Peter , kept legs in position w no spread for Sean . Loved 'em! bar x 5 135 x 5 225 x 5 x 5 sets in 12 minutes. Could have gone heavier but checked the ego for Stonethrower and tried to do it right. Hit chin everytime - felt fast(got a game in a week and a half) and functional. Smiff - LOOK! old dawg learning new tricks! Woof! ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/25/12 at 4:20pm
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jsully- how fast did you do the 500 meter row ? I did 1 minute and 33 seconds last week and almost barfed.
------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: Silverback
Date Posted: 10/26/12 at 7:36am
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I have love in my heart? I have heard that before someplace
------------- Mule Sportkilt AST Sport Supplements |
Posted By: chirolifter
Date Posted: 10/26/12 at 4:14pm
Oh shit Baab used CAPS..... 
------------- "It's what you do when no one is watching that builds character." Gene Flynn |
Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/26/12 at 4:42pm
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HAW HAW! ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: 17/20
Date Posted: 10/26/12 at 5:53pm
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Mike, in season f ball for the son- 15 soon. Hi pull, power clean, Hang pull/ clean pull shrug ? He loves to power clean with a very hi catch little jump to the side. I limit him to 150 for 3, 3-5 sets. His tech is very good. Wondering now if he's beating him self up play a half freshman and getting some reps at DT with JV. The alt week he goes trap bar pull shrugs no higher than 225 for 3, 3-5 sets. We keep the box squat very high, want some flexion in the torso and legs. ------------- I MAY BE BIG , BUT I'M FAST |
Posted By: jsully
Date Posted: 10/26/12 at 5:56pm
1:30.4 is my "PR", thought I haven't done it in a long time. I suspect I would die at 1:35 now, haha..
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Posted By: M-BAAB
Date Posted: 10/27/12 at 10:50am
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Don - I have em do in season ( most high schools around here do 2 x 12 -15 circuits during season.) 1. An explosive leg - jumpsqts bar maybe 40% of max to 1/4 sqt - 4 sets of 5 usually - or hvy dumbell lunges dynamic or hvy dumbell j squats(do all these on a pad- save knees.) 2. An explosive all body - usually reps of 3- 5 on some type of power hi pull or hvy dumbell cleans(I like a swinging variant - mimics hip power exploding up thru hard lifting hands.) 3. An explosive upper body - I love my "Lineman push ups" - elbows in tight explosive perfect push ups - usually 2 x12) - or pushpress , plate press etc 4. A muscle building pull - pull ups or hang rows(love hang rows - fball guys need to be strong in the push out and pull back way) 3 x 8-12 5. bi /tri - big arms make good fball players - couple sets. 6. Lower core stuff like leg raises , leg scissors . And rotational = oblique rolls , russian plate twists. Couple sets each - hard , fast - go home 45 minutes tops. They do this once a week w me and twice a week circuits w coaches - they will tell you if they are gassed - ASK! just cut everything in half if they look poopy. If they are hurt - adapt and regress. ------------- 51 , 72 and 15 at 50 |
Posted By: 17/20
Date Posted: 10/27/12 at 4:26pm
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Thanks Mike! Will add the arm blast - still have my dave draper arm blaster. With you on the vertical / horizontal rows he does em on the pull day. He hits the core and the athletic based push ups at practice. Like the DB cleans will incorporate on pull back day. Leg squat day we'll add some explosive jumping like the Db jumps. DT-He's learning the art of get off the block. Skinny bastard box squated 315x3. Think that's why he's getting off the block! ------------- I MAY BE BIG , BUT I'M FAST |
Posted By: brandell
Date Posted: 10/27/12 at 8:28pm
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Clean info... http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/HP.htm" rel="nofollow - http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/HP.htm Had a chance to talk with JV a few times before he died, he was a really nice guy and very smart about the lifts. |
Posted By: BrianKing
Date Posted: 10/30/12 at 8:44am
| I believe if you are teaching good technique on the practice field (i.e. good stance, hands on the numbers, head up, etc.), then proper lifting technique should be taught in the weight room. You dont play the game, nor do you throw with your feet kicked out super wide like the cross-s**t douche is doing in the cleanjack.. |