Question:  Besides the World Masters Championships are there any slightly lower level games for Master athletes to attend?

I do not mean masters state championships, I am referring to something larger or are the bigger ones invite only? Or Pro Masters only?

Now that there is a Pro-Masters Group can Masters that threw in a Pro-Masters event throw in any Masters Group?

Rob-

There is only an age group competition at the MWC by SMAI. We welcome all throwers regardless of pro or am status. We make no such distinctions or categories as Pro Masters.

You'll see an open pro/am format at MWC 2011 Calgary.

Check out who is coming to the event here:

http://www.scottishmasters.org/MWC2011Athletes.html - http://www.scottishmasters.org/MWC2011Athletes.html

-K

Alan,

You should have taken the $100.00 bucks and volunteered yourself to drug testing.

I was thinking about this the exact same thing. There is a huge difference between the MWC's and the Pro Masters comp. they had in europe last year. Or masters comp's in general.

I compete in masters but I would look silly trying to  compete with athletes like Gene Flynn and the rest of that field...those guy's are on a different level...and that's why they were invited to that comp!!

But it is just age for masters...if someone was a pro and wants to compete in a masters events at local games then so be it....again no one's getting rich at this....to me it's about showing up competing..pushing myself...enjoying the games and comraderie (sp?)...if my throws get beat by 10 feet so what...

But it is good that they do have a Pro Masters World Championships so that the best masters can get invited and paid to compete.. and if at the bigger comp's they pay the best masters then that is great...

And the MWC's are a great mix of pro's and am's alike..I was able to compete there and it was a great experience..and hopefully I will be back there competing again...

My point after all my rambling ? !! I am getting old....masters is just an age thing.... 

Big Rob,  if you want to come up for a MASA game you are welcome to crash at casa de Dickens.

phatmiked wrote: Big Rob,  if you want to come up for a MASA game you are welcome to crash at casa de Dickens.

Thanks Mike,

I have wanted to see your basement where the dancing moves were created. I must say I have watched your video a few times (In a non-gay way)***

What is the next masters games you are doing?

I have a little son now and can't do any games for 2-3 months.

I'd like to get you guys' input on this a little further.

As a fairly New AD (Greenville), I've strived to maintain or improve upon the Standards that I learned by, which were Kay Cummins. His views on Pro/Am Status were very well known and he didn't hesitate to tell you what they were. Being in the South, my only real exposure has been to SSAAA (Kay Cummins) or SHAG (An Off-Shoot of SSAAA), so the same basic rules applied.

My goal is and has been to grow our game to the highest level achievable. This means the highest level of exposure to the public. Creating a Family/Festival Atmposhere that brings the people to our game. As a secondary goal, I want the very best competition, i.e. everyone wanting to throw as hard and far as they can throw. Good competitive scores and a close match for the win. (Just my 2 cents).

I can truly see both sides of the coin as far as having (Pro/Masters and Am/Masters throwing together vs. separating the two.

Do you see an advantage to having Pro/Masters throwing with Am/ Masters? Do you think that there's a fall-off of participation from your Am/Masters if they know they're going to be throwing with a couple of Pros? Again, as an AD, I want the biggest and best participation available. That's what brings more people in the gate.

Personally, I've had the absolute pleasure of getting to throw with Gene Flynn, Chris Chafin and Mike Neise. I can't remember when I've learned as much and simply stood in awe of what they were able to do. Braidy Miller is a new thrower in the 40-44 Age group who simply throws Bombs!! I can see from a competition standpoint, that having those two guys go head to head at my game would be simply spectacular to watch. Would it cause some of the other Am/Masters to throw B Division instead? Does my crowd get bored knowing which one or two guys are going to dominate every event? I don't know, that's why I ask.

I've always tried to be open to learning something new or seeing things in a different light and this is no exception. What are the compelling reasons to change from what's always been done to something new? Will it help grow my game (Greenville) and our Overall Sport as a result of changing? That's where I need others' input. I'd be interested in hearing from other AD's and their experiences with making this leap, if it really is a leap.

John Allen

John,

I think if you can get the best guys to show up... i.e...Gene Flynn, Chris Chafin, Mike Neise..etc... you kind of owe it to the organizers of the festival and the crowd...

Personally I would love to throw with those guys..although I would totally get smoked..ha ha...

I'm not sure if the crowd cares ?...pro/masters  am/masters ..am A, B , C, novice ..etc..plus it gets a bit crowded with all the different classes...

I dont think the crowd would lose interest if several guy's were dominating..they will be pushing each other....crowds like that..

I would invite the best guy's you can get and I'm sure you'll have other masters willing and wanting to throw ..even if they arent the caliber of the above guy's mentioned...

Congrats on being a new A.D. and good luck promoting and growing  your games... 

http://www.glsaa.com - www.glsaa.com

Mostly games in Ohio but we don't care who comes as long as they know how to laugh.

Cdn Masters Championship offered prize $. Guess that makes me a Pro-Master. Master-Pro?

I think I would go with "Lucky" but I know most people just use "Handsome".

John,

Kay always told me that the reason he did want pros at his competitions was he felt the friendly competition between athletes went from helping each other to becoming enemies for the money. He told me he saw two athletes that threw together for years  as armatures  that always helped one another go from friends  to being enemies over $25.00 dollars in the sheaf and he did not want that to happen in his games.

Amateurs not armatures.

Craig please lets us edit again.

Rob Schultz wrote: phatmiked wrote: Big Rob,  if you want to come up for a MASA game you are welcome to crash at casa de Dickens. Thanks Mike, I have wanted to see your basement where the dancing moves were created. I must say I have watched your video a few times (In a non-gay way)*** What is the next masters games you are doing? I have a little son now and can't do any games for 2-3 months.

Rob, next masters game for me is NA champs at the 'Claw.  Throwing open a Sean MacKay's game in Jersey at Glasgowlands, both in July.

We will definitely pull out some cardboard and work on your pop and locking when you come up. 

Thanks for the input everyone.

As I said, I try to be open to learning something new or seeing things from different perspectives. That was one of the reasons we changed our Masters Age this year at Greenville. I'd really like to continue to make those kind of improvements and really make Greenville a game that Athletes strive to come to. Heck, let's give it a try, right?

Thanks Again,

John

C. Smith wrote: I can't imagine anyone objecting to throwing with people who are better.  Does that really happen?

If I was that way I'd never get to throw.  As one of the guys on the bottom of the Masters chain I can say I love throwing with guys like Gene, Don, Dan Dillon etc.  Usually those are the guys that help me the most AND have the most fun.  If there's apprehension about us lower level old guys throwing against former/current pros I'm not seeing it.

thegnome wrote: If I was that way I'd never get to throw.  As one of the guys on the bottom of the Masters chain I can say I love throwing with guys like Gene, Don, Dan Dillon etc.  Usually those are the guys that help me the most AND have the most fun.  If there's apprehension about us lower level old guys throwing against former/current pros I'm not seeing it.

+1 here!  I'm usually riding drag behind the A class women in open events.  I'm middle to bottom of chain on masters (not many games done with a master's women's class yet), especially as A class women gracefully age into the master's group <LOL> (I was there when I started HG).

C. Smith wrote: I can't imagine anyone objecting to throwing with people who are better.  Does that really happen?  What would be the reasoning... Your ego can't take it that someone is that much better than you?  You have no desire to improve?  You can't tell you friends and family you're the greatest Highland games athlete ever?  You don't win a medal/trophy?  I just can't wrap my head around that.

Craig I feel the same as you...

I can't tell you how bad it felt over hearing other master throwers complain about me, Braidy and Brent Miller throwing in the masters this year in Dunedin. I overheard the A.D. saying to another thrower how most the masters have complained to him, and they felt we should throw in the A-Group. We took 1,2,3 in every event and we were tied going into the last event. Most fun I have had in a competition.

The Masters Class in Newport included Steve Pulcinella.  None of the other Master Athletes had any complaints throwing against Steve, in fact they were all honored to be competing against a man they all considered a legend.  For most of them is was the first time they ever met him and they raved at how cool he was, just another one of the athletes.  Of course he also graciously posed for photographs with nearly all of them and a bunch of folks from the crowd.

Masters is a age class, pure and simple.  Any games who is lucky enough to have Elite level athletes register for their Masters class should jump for joy.  These men know how to entertain the crowd which ultimately is what they are there for.  Athletes who get to throw against these legends, consider yourself lucky as well.

I can't tell you how bad it felt over hearing other master throwers complain about me, Braidy and Brent Miller throwing in the masters this year in Dunedin. I overheard the A.D. saying to another thrower how most the masters have complained to him,

Wow, that really surprises me.  I know I usually goof off around here but I seriously wonder why that would be.  The only thing I can come up with is that in  case like me I'm going to finish at or near the bottom anyway, so it really doen't matter to me who is where.  Maybe since the other guys would be at the top if you and the other top guys weren't there it bothered them.  Kind of took away their chance to come out at the front.  I don't know any of the people involved and actually hope to throw there some day (my folks live there now) so I'm just guessing, but I hope that's not the case.  That would be kinda sad in a way, it's all about the throwing guys.  What WE are capable of doing.  If someone throws farther than you, then good for them.

C. Smith wrote: thegnome wrote: Maybe since the other guys would be at the top if you and the other top guys weren't there it bothered them.  Kind of took away their chance to come out at the front.  What kind of f**king hollow victory would that be?  Who wants to win when there are people on the field in the same class that would have beat them?  Good lord, once again, I just can't wrap my head around that.

Not agreeing with them, just rying to figure out what their motivation might have been regardless of how misguided.  Like I said I wasn't there so it's just a hypothesis.  Sort of a hazzard of my job I guess.  I do 100% agree with your prescription though....everybody should just man up and deal with it.

Rob, I heard some of the similar rhetoric at Dunedin and you even hear it when guys under 45 are allowed to throw in some of the Masters Class Games in the South. It all goes back to what I said in the beginning. Kay, for everything he contributed to the Sport, was pretty vocal about his position on Masters, Pros/Ams, and when you hear the same thing over and over, and that's all you've heard and experienced, you come to think that's the norm. SSAAA and SHAG Games in the Southeast, to my knowledge, have always been 45 and older and Am....No Pros. It's starting to change and I like it. I want to help be part of that change. Answer to your question is if I can get those guys to throw in Greenville next year, I plan to make it happen.

Craig, I feel the same way you and Myles do. I can't wait to get my Arse handed to me by the likes of Gene, Chafin and Neise again...lol As a result, I learn something. I try harder next time and ultimately I improve. Braidy Miller has had his way around me too many times....lol But I did catch him with an off day in Panama City in HWFD and stole a win in the event. Every once in a while, I sneak up on somebody in the Caber.....lol Those are personal wins for me but I always want to be pushed by the better throwers to improve. But truth is, not everyone has the competitive drive or physical ability you guys at the top do. I accept them for who they are and go on about my way.

As an AD, I can't please everyone all the time. It's not my Goal. I want to create the best and safest Athletic Competition possible while increasing my gate. Some guys wil never be happy. Oh Well

Thanks Again for Everyone's input!!!

John

Silverback wrote: The sport is Heavy Athletics, it is not for everyone.  I love a trophy as much as anyone, but not a hollow one.  No offense to anyone, but I don't understand the rush to the masters class even.  I understand the pain of throwing a 56, but again, this is heavy athletics.

Myles, I knew you were reading this.

Hope to throw with you soon... I refuse to defend myself against you, as I have to much respect.

Silverback wrote: The sport is Heavy Athletics, it is not for everyone.

Absolutely.

Masters should throw the 56.  just sayin'   

phatmiked wrote: Masters should throw the 56.  just sayin'

I agree with you mike. The 56 is one of my best events.

C-

My suggestion to the original organizing group of Masters some years ago was that there is a natural attrition rate with each decade in this sport and that if we started with a 40 year old athlete and keep him active in the sport for one or two decades then we will have more throwers in the 60+ division. And that is our goal. Stay active, compete each year and commit to the program.

It like a feeder program,... you have to start them young and keep them interested to see them play on the varsity team.

I say it works pretty good to start at 40 years old for Masters.

-K 

C. Smith wrote: Does not compute.

Yes, but you (and most of us) are not typical.  I think there are a number of people that probably would apply to.  I actually have 2 goals with the 56 and at some point will have to throw in the B's or as an Am this year or next once or twice to take a crack at it.  I also agree with you about the Masters at 50 thing (and I'm 45).  I think it's been a tradition in sports to start masters at 35 or 40 based on old beliefs that clearly don't apply any more....but I'm throwing masters because they're fun and I already bought a 42. 

C-

I didn't say anthing about the weight or making it easier.

My belief is that attrition of athletes from the sport after they reach their late 30s/early 40s peak would be detrimental to an organization devoted to Masters age athletics if we didn't offer a opportunity for them to stay active, compete and commit to training the heavy event as a lifestyle up into their senior years.

-K 

I did not look at it this way. I just thought masters was, you throw with people your same age....

Just like if we were to have a +300 pound weight group, then if you were over 300 you throw with guys your same weight range.

I am 385 pounds, lets say I smoke everyone in my weight group. Would people say I need to throw in a different group because I threw much further than the rest and don't belong?

C-

Come'on, we see a lot of guys come and go in this sport. That's why I believe in that basic premise of attrition in our sport. Quite a few of the guys that I started with are no longer throwing and I'd guess that is common, expected and predictable. I have no other evidence than that for my belief.

They disappear for many different reasons and at different seasons in their career... injury, work, change in interests, whatever ... but none of us are going to worry too much about a guy who quits at 28 years old... he's young, its too much work or he's just moving on to another sport ... but for the ones who want to stay in this sport - we offer age group competitions. Cause it's fun.  

Not everyone is 42 years old and at the peak of strength, but if I was... I too would throw with the Am class ... and if memory serves me ... I did just that ... but I threw with the Masters at times also. 

What if I did a study that showed the majority of HG atheltes retired as their PRs became more uncommon; the cabers didn't turn like they used to before that last injury or surgery or their throws are not what they were during their peak ... and ... that most retired in late 30s or early 40s? 

Would I be wrong to offer them a game with athletes in the same situation? same age, physiology or motivations?

We don't have to lose participation in the sport by aging athletes if we offer Masters competitions, one way or another; ... and I'll be glad to take a look at your study.

-K

C-

Yes, I believe that someone will contiue to compete if offered a chance at competitors with a similar physical situation. It's a fundamental drive we share. 

So far this year, we've seen new records set in 4 different age groups and that may indicate an active, strong and motivated Scottish Masters athletics community.    

Of course, you know that it will be a blast to see trying to crack one of our Masters records someday too.

-K  

Personally I couldnt imagine "games shopping" just to enter a masters class to get  a medal ,trophy, sword, etc. Everything I've ever won is in a box in the basement on a shelf. It really isnt about winning for me.

For me it comes down to what they are having at a games ? If there is a masters I'll enter it...it's a little easier throwing the light hammer and the 42. But if I want to go to a games and all they have is open am's...so be it...I'll throw the 56 with the young guys...

For me it also is about traveling..I stick to games that I dont have to travel far to.....regardless of what class they are having...

But probably the most fun I've ever had was last year when I competed on the same field with my son in the open am's....he took second..... but I couldnt tell you where I finished...

To me it's just about pushing myself and still being able to compete

Craig, you can come throw in the masters with us this year and we'll give you a bogus name to throw under.  I'll vouch for you being 40 at the time you throw.  How does "Wilford Brimley" sound?

Like I said earlier:  http://www.glsaa.com - www.glsaa.com we don't care who you are as long as you know how to laugh (ammended:  as long as you know how to laugh with and not at <unless it's me.  Everyone else does>)

I have been told that the masters class was started just for throwers that were elite athletes that got old and wanted to still throw.

I feel if a thrower is throwing in a masters class and the athlete looks like he has never done this before that they should not throw in the masters class at a standard highland games, they should throw in a lower class.

Hey-

I'm not convinced that one rumored comment of someone bitching about who they are throwing with is a good reason to change our age groups in the Masters. Guys will bitch about everything under the sun ... it should not change every plan. I fail to see any reason to exclude Craig's examplar 42 year old athlete from the Masters.

There is a great value to all sports in providing competitions for young athletes. In this case with the Masters, .. young means 40-50 years old. I still see the age group as a valuable part of our plans to develop athletes and a really big part of our Championships.

-K

Rob-

Its not just for elite athletes that got old... although it might look that way. We often have guys who came around to the the games later in life or from other power sports.

-K

Kevin, I agree with you...

A short history lesson- Rob you are right at least for the east coast.  The first games that I’m aware of having a masters class was Alexandria Virginia.  As you said it began because there were still good throwers who could no longer compete with the top guys coming up but didn’t want to retire.  The caveat was that you had thrown at the Alexandria games for 10 years and you were 45+.  We threw the 56 because no one had ever thought of a 42 pound weight.  We were all pros and we got paid in the masters division.   I kept throwing into my 50s because I loved to throw and be around other throwers.  I was very hurt when I was unable to throw in the SSAAA competitions in my 50s. I was grateful to SHAG because their rules allowed me to throw so I was surprised at Gene’s comment that he couldn’t throw in a SHAG competition.  I stopped throwing when it hurt too much to walk the next day. It didn’t dawn on me until today that maybe I couldn’t throw because I was an asshole.  Now it all makes sense!

I do think the master classes are great for the sport.  This has been a great discussion.  I do agree with others that it should probably start at 45.  I also think that if a guy wants to throw in a games they should be able to.  I don’t see a reason to have pros and ams if the AD is offering money and you don’t want to take it………pass..........but thats a different thread.

Satch

Rob,

       You really know how to start "stuff". Along with throwing one masters game, I also like to arm wrestle my grandpa and appear at midget wrestling night as "Andre the Giant". I know that sounds funny but it all about the "W". Really I agree with Myles but when the age group is 40-44 and that is your age then go for it. You know my feelings about masters and the 56 so get back lifting and we go amateur A for a while(3-5yrs).

Later,

Brent

I'm a 44 year old masters class guy and as far as saying that it's not fair to be this age in this class, if it's being said firmly I have only a few responses in no particular order:

Dale, Myles, Frank, and Baab.  And many more!

Not sure where being 44 is such an advantage in ranking/stature/whatever when you have these guys crushing the young-old guys.  And I am not even mentioning the former pro's only to point out that a younger 40's is not proof of dominance.  Heck, my joint pain is as bad as anybody has. 

Probably goes back to asking why you are throwing.  My point is that the company you keep is far more precious than any medals or trophies.  I love my competition.  Great folks win/lose/draw is not a big priority.

K Rogers wrote: I'm not convinced that one rumored comment of someone bitching about who they are throwing with is a good reason to change our age groups in the Masters.

That quote X 10000000

Soul Eater wrote: I'm not sure how many guys my age could handle doing that. And I take Flintstone Vitamins and Chocolate milk. .

The gummies or the old school ones that taste like chalk?

all - this is fun. i am 113 years old and am retired from HG; i started at 51 in the Ams, almost always at the bottom of the results (i once finished second to myles wetzel in the caber because i was the only othe guy who could pick it up) and i can remember kearney smith and kerry overfelt and even the immortal aforementioned c smith tolerating me on the field of honor. the pure joy of standing and delivering as best i could with these and many other stalwarts is what i remember, not so much the odd geezer record throw, though i took serious pride in those also. the beer during and after was often the real reward.

as for other strength sports, i am still active in the Masters Olympic Lift competitions, and staggered into a gold medal at the Nationals this year in the Fat and Feeble Division. This was enjoyable also, as it reminded me that life is worth living, but not so much sitting on your ass. The main drawback in this sport is the lack of liquors in the athlete's tent (there is no OLY in Oly), i have made a recommendation based on my experiences in HG. keep you posted, rgds

Larry Satchwell wrote: A short history lesson- Rob you are right at least for the east coast.  The first games that I’m aware of having a masters class was Alexandria Virginia.  As you said it began because there were still good throwers who could no longer compete with the top guys coming up but didn’t want to retire.  The caveat was that you had thrown at the Alexandria games for 10 years and you were 45+.  We threw the 56 because no one had ever thought of a 42 pound weight.  We were all pros and we got paid in the masters division.   I kept throwing into my 50s because I loved to throw and be around other throwers.  I was very hurt when I was unable to throw in the SSAAA competitions in my 50s. I was grateful to SHAG because their rules allowed me to throw so I was surprised at Gene’s comment that he couldn’t throw in a SHAG competition.  I stopped throwing when it hurt too much to walk the next day. It didn’t dawn on me until today that maybe I couldn’t throw because I was an asshole.  Now it all makes sense! I do think the master classes are great for the sport.  This has been a great discussion.  I do agree with others that it should probably start at 45.  I also think that if a guy wants to throw in a games they should be able to.  I don’t see a reason to have pros and ams if the AD is offering money and you don’t want to take it………pass..........but thats a different thread. Satch

Larry thanks for sharing that.

I remember my first highland games I went to was at Dunedin, Fl and I remember standing in the “B” group listing to the announcer talk about who the masters athletes were and how they were we all ex-champions and who each of them was that were throwing and I got chills, then I saw how good most of the guys techniques were still after all those years and I thought to myself man I hope someday that will be me.

coachmiller wrote: Rob,        You really know how to start "stuff". Along with throwing one masters game, Really I agree with Myles but when the age group is 40-44 and that is your age then go for it. You know my feelings about masters and the 56 so get back lifting and we go amateur A for a while(3-5yrs). Later, Brent

Brent, you got a deal...

Another alternative, and a novel idea that's never been brought up to my knowledge  , classes solely on ability based on marks in the past year:  no masters, no pro's, no etc. 

If AD can support 40 athletes, then put the top 10 in elite and pay them.  the next 10 in A, next 10 in B, etc.  Each class ought to be competitive.

Then again, it's a free country.  Run your games the way you want, as long as everyone in a class is throwing the same stuff.

phatmiked wrote: Another alternative, and a novel idea that's never been brought up to my knowledge, classes solely on ability based on marks in the past year:  no masters, no pro's, no etc.  If AD can support 40 athletes, then put the top 10 in elite and pay them.  the next 10 in A, next 10 in B, etc.

l think that you're talking about SAAA's class system!

C. Smith wrote: ftr, I never said "no masters classes", I just think we start them way too young, along with several other sports.

We're pretty consistent with many other sports in having master's competition start at age 40.

Powerlifting--40 (some feds used to have sub-master starting at age 35)

Weightlifting--35

Track/field--40

Senior golf--50

Basketball--40

Swimming--18

Gymnastics--over 18

Baseball--18

Masters football (UK, indoors)--35

Soul Eater wrote: Masters track and field starts at 35.

Sorry--thanks for correction!  I misread the source I had checked (they had the right age).