Is HRT cheating?

Brian-

Interesting, ... thanks.

-K

Sorry if this has been mentioned. All I see talked about
is total testosterone levels. The number you should be
checking is your bioavailable testosterone levels. This
is even different than free testosterone. Bioavailable
testosterone is the true indicator of low test. The
other thing to do is have your doctor (get an
endocrinologist) take 3 samples of blood 30 minutes apart
so you get 3 samples in a one hour time period in the
morning. Then they pool the 3 samples together to get an
accurate reading. There are high and low spikes even
within the hour as far as testosterone levels go and you
may be drawing during a low spike or a high spike and not
getting a true reading. I have been dealing with what
most doctors would call low testosterone (300) but more
than adequate as far as bioavailable testosterone so I
don't have hypogonadism. Again, I know this isn't the
discussion but worth checking with your doc before
starting synthetic testosterone. Don't misunderstand me,
I am all for hormone replacement if you need it but just
putting some info out there that I have dealt with
recently.

John-

Many compounds have similar - bioavailable - states and they may require a completely different method for lab analysis. Not all labs are created the same, I might add, and the methods they use are likewise not everywhere equal.

If we ever get past the philosophical and get to the point where we discuss the test methods in a QA project plan then these will be some of the technical/critical considerations.

Your comment also correctly points out the difficulty in testing a target with a large natural variation - hourly, daily, weekly.

Interesting stuff,

-K

 IF you are honestly on TRT then your doc has run EVERY Test needed. 

Ok I see we are still at this so let me help try to clarify further.


Labs to be done before you start TRT
* Free Testosterone or bio-T
* Total Testosterone (<500 is not good. 700-1000 is good)
-LH and FSH [LH/FSH]
-E2
-Prolactin [optional in most cases]
-DHT [sort of a waist of time and blood if your testosterone levels are low]
-PSA
-DRE: the dreaded digital rectal exam, doc gives you the finger.

Labs to be done when on TRT
* Free Testosterone or bio-T
* Total Testosterone (<500 is not good. 700-1000 is good)

-Implications of injections VS transdermals [and injection frequency]
-E2
-Prolactin [optional and almost never on-going]
-DHT [should be checked, but perhaps not on-going]
-LH/FSH [optional and one last time -do I have cancer?]
-PSA
-DRE: the dreaded digital rectal exam [Your doc does not enjoy this either!]

Labs to never do and timing issues:
-DO NOT test E2 ultra sensitive
-DO NOT do saliva testing for T or E2 and expect any help here
-DO NOT test for free E2
-DO NOT test total estrogens
-DO NOT test PSA within 48 hours after a DRE [digital rectal (prostate) exam] or ejaculation
-DO NOT test prolactin with 48 hours of orgasm, avoid hugging puppies and babies
-DO NOT do lab work when muscles are sore from training or injury as your "liver markers" will show high levels. Those "liver tests" are really not liver specific.
-DO NOT waist time and money on tests that you cannot take any action on. Example, testing IGF-1 for growth hormone status if there is no way you could every pay for GH or actually legally qualify for GH.
-DO NOT routinely test for LH/FSH when on TRT, perhaps once to rule out certain testicular cancers and never again
-DO NOT test for serum DHEA, must test DHEA-S
-DO NOT do saliva testing for T, DHT, DHEA, pregnenolone if taking sublingual/buccal T, pregnenolone OR DHEA OR other steroid. The tests will be wrong and you do not want cross reactivity unknowns
-Testing E2&TT&FT makes also testing SHBG sort of useless.

Labs that are stupid after you start TRT
-LH/FSH

Thyroid labs [basic first line]
-TSH
-T3 no see fT3
-T4 no see fT4
-are you getting enough iodine? probably not! http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...thryoid_problem
-? stuff that Hardasnails will suggest to me via PM

Adrenal labs
-Cortisol four sample saliva testing [the gold standard]
-Pregnenolone [the foundation of the adrenal hormones and all steroid hormones *]
-DHEA [can't make T without it] no see DHEA-S
-DHEA-S [DHEA Sulphate]

* Vit-D is multi-step derived from cholesterol directly, not via pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is also direct from cholesterol. Cholesterol is really the root of all steroid hormones. [Because cholesterol can be considered a precursor of testosterone, and testosterone a metabolite of cholesterol under Federal Statute [http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/csa/802.htm], cholesterol is technically a schedule III controlled substance and is subject to criminal penalties as an illegal anabolic steroid. Attempts by John McCain and others to explicitly classify DHEA as a schedule III anabolic steroid have nonetheless failed. See http://frwebgate.access.gpo.go... ]

General health labs
-CBC: Complete Blood Counts
-Hematocrit: Part of CBC but needs its own discussion
-Lipids: Fasting Cholesterol and related
-Vit_D25 hormone -yes vitamin D becomes an essential steroid hormone
-Glucose: Fasting levels indicate insulin function
-Liver markers -are they really liver specific? [Hint: not]


Things that you can determine without lab work

Symptoms: Why are you here
-Brain fog, no one knows what that means but everyone knows if they have it!
-Social withdrawal - "I would rather not go out"
-Why do I have boobs? This really is depressing if prolactin is the cause!
-Why do I carry fat like a woman?
-Why am I a moody bitch?
-Can't get it up?
-It is up, now it's gone.
-My penis is numb -your nerves love T too. Things to do with testosterone cream.
-My testes are softer and smaller
-My testes ache 24x7
-My scrotum is up-tight, gives "how are they hanging" a whole new meaning.
-Nocturnal erections -necessary but not sufficient
-"morning wood" -things are working
-Why do really hot looking women and girls now look like art instead of lust?
-I felt great when I started TRT, where did that go? Neural transmitters rule your life.
-My TRT seems ineffective or never was. Things that crash in the night.
-On TRT and still do not feel right, something else is wrong.
-Loss of hair on lower legs, skin below the knees is smooth and shiny.
-Why do I feel cold easily or all of the time?
-Why do really stressful situations leave me feeling physically beat up. Adrenal fatigue.
-Dry skin, brittle hair and nails
-Skin on the back of hand is thin, crinkly. Pinched skin does not recover
-Gum disease, the ugly killer
-Why do I have a chronic cough [when taking a statin drug]
-I have visual field disturbances such as reduced peripheral vision
-My joints have started to ache
-TRT and now leg cramps
-TRT and wife says I am snoring more
-I am not depressed, I just don't care about anything, no joy, no motivation, no reward
-I want sex twice a day and my wife/GF is freaking out. What do do about her.
-We fixed my wife's hormones and I can't keep up with her needs. [Give me her phone number!]
-I want sex twice a day and my wife/GF loves it. Why are you still here?


As for as John's comment on usable Test, No sir you are incorrect. I had a high level of 'usable test' but a 190 score on total test. Ok so is 90% of 190 better than 75% of 800?  No, plain and simple no. Vice Versa if I have an 900 Total level and can only use 25% of it then the person isn't in good shape either.

Look time to be honest, anyone still bitching about TRT is on a witch hunt, doesn't like it being used and is going to come up with any and all excuses, random studies, links etc to try and back the position they don't want anyone in the games using anything.

No matter what it is going to be used for those over 40 that suffer from low test. Any REAL DOC worth his or her salt that is truly treating TRT is going to run tons of testing over MONTHS before allowing TRT.

As I emailed the panel of folks that made the SMAI decision on their position, I spent two hours on Monday with my doc who is outstanding at hormone replacement in the Mid West for both males and females. Here is what he said and what I personally have decided to try...

1. NO you do not get enough testosterone for it to truly be a PED. In fact he laughed his ass off at this common misunderstanding of TRT and the dosages given. He agrees the only ones saying that are those who are completely ignorant and wanting to go out of their way to find some reason to bitch about it's use vs real, medical facts.

 2. Unfortunately an athlete will show up positive even with just TRT on  a test. The P's are just enough different even with bio identical test that is compounded that it will show up as synthetic IF they are looking for that vs. the 4:1 Ratio. So use at your own risk.

 3. The next part I found interesting and very honorable from his standpoint. Even though I am on it for health reasons, he will NOT prescribe TRT for me if I compete in any sport. He cited the several docs in the OKC area that have been busted for being dumb asses and just prescribing or passing out Steroid doses of Test and other items. He says that even though it is legal, although I am under his care and all is above board, if the feds found out I was competing in sport (and hopefully not sucking at it) then they would be all in his ass about it and cause tons of issues for his practice. Now of course, he, I and everyone else would be cleared as it is all legal, but it just isn't' worth the BS.

4. My doc is a genius when it comes to the body and natural supplementation, so as of Today I am off TRT and following his natural regimen that will help raise my test naturally albeit not as much as TRT would. I am just hope I feel good overall. We will see.

 

brandell wrote: Look time to be honest, anyone still bitching about TRT is on a witch hunt, doesn't like it being used and is going to come up with any and all excuses, random studies, links etc to try and back the position they don't want anyone in the games using anything.

Would you really expect anything else?



At least this thread started out good, lol.

@ Craig, no shit. And no I don't expect anything else. I can be the year 3011 and some people will still not get the only thing that makes you a better thrower is years of throwing, drilling, watching tape....AND THROWING. There is no way around this and no juice is going to make you throw better. I am done arguing the point as those that still don't get that, never will.

@ Steve, I know bud. We try to educate and be informative but they always seem to head south at some point. Irrational Hysteria seems to always be the preference over common sense and reason.

No, I think he's saying drugs aren't the magic pill most people seem to think they are.

Andy Vincent wrote: No, I think he's saying drugs aren't the magic pill most people seem to think they are.

+1

C. Smith wrote: http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tabid/130/EntryId/601/Ti p-152-Strength-Train-For-Life-Live-Longer-and-Decrease-High- Blood-Pressure.aspx Timely article imo.

'A clinical review of the evidence found that low testosterone levels are linked to significantly greater risk of cardiovascular-related death in men.'

Bull shit I say!  The study is just another excuse for someone to do steroids....

(sarcasm off)

Yes, it is.

Thanks for weighing in.  Very timely.

Humm something just happened there that caught my eye real quick....Interesting....

The Branimal wrote: What's that, Mr. Randell?

nothing, just something I thought I saw. I am getting old so that seems to happen more often

I would like to know what the SAAA and IHGF stances are on this issue with all the information provided.