The Importance of Hang Cleans & Snatches

This is another post from coach John Smith taken from The Ring. Smith has studied both the East German and the Westside concepts extensively and has taken what he personally believes to be the best elements from each for training throwers.  The result might be described as a heavily modified version of Westside, but with reduced volume (due to the demands of heavy throwing) and cleans and snatches being key lifts (along with bench presses, heavy pulls, Safety Squat Bar squats, and box squats).  While I do not agree with everything Smith says, he is an experienced and successful coach (he coaches Dan Taylor), who often makes some very good points that deserve serious consideration.

The importance of hang cleans and snatches

The triangle is the throwing position that proceeds the firing of the right leg, hip and shoulder. Its the angle between the right hip, right shoulder, and right knee(power position). This position when violently closed creates and transfers power through the backward "C" delivery position. This position and action is very similar to the position created when you do a hang clean or box clean. I rather use these two lifts over a power cleans because of the stretch reflex that is created, as the body arrives to this position from the back of the ring. Landing against the ground creates a stretch reflex, which is better simulated in the weight room from the hang position. For this reason the clean and snatch is critical to teach and perform the quick transition from linear power (gliding off the back) to vertical power( the right leg, hip and shoulder working first UP then Out.) If a thrower does not work up in time you will get a flat decelerating throw.

I have studied many throwers who possessed big bench presses and big squats and could not understand why they had so much trouble getting the ball into the air. I even asked these throwers why they couldn’t work their hip up in time before the ball drifted forward. The usual response was that they knew what they had to do, but couldn’t, no matter how hard they tried. So I started to look at this common problem from a physical point of view. Even though I believe there is no such thing as being to strong. I do believe however that being overly strong in one area will cause unfixable technique problems in the throw.

Shot putters with cleans (catching high, not a drop clean) that totaled less than 50% of their squat tend to throw low and have poor technique because the strength of their squat and bench (main contributors to linear motion) caused the body and ball to blow through the transition phase of the throw. I found that people who had over a 60% of clean to squat ratio threw with much better technique and got the ball in the air with a whole lot less squat and bench power. In essence being too strong in one area causes another area to fail at its critical job. This is why throwers with a big clean, a poor squat and bench can throw relativity far. However, if your squat bench and clean get stronger in the proper ratio, then you will throw even farther. This is why the Germans put so much value on their snatch and cleans and use the squat and bench to better exploit the critical explosive throwing power that the clean and snatch can teach.

 

 

Kerry,

I am just putting the articles up, but I would make a couple of observations. 

First, there is no doubt that Craig could power clean much more if he bothered to learn how to do a power clean.  You can simply draw no conclusions whatsoever from his result.

Second, although I think Craig has somewhat better stone technique than he thinks or likes to suggest, there is no doubt that he has little concern for the finer points of the throw, which is really what Smith is talking about.

 

Coach Smith does not have his athletes catch power cleans.  There is a big difference in catching and not catching a clean.  If you are not catching it,,,then you might as well do a high pull.

Craig not learning the finer points of the clean is a good move for him...with 9 events to learn why would he spend one second learning another highly technical event if he could get by with what he does.

One reason to catch the lifts is to teach quick contract & relax ability.  There is a lot of talk on here about contracting quickly, but none about relaxing quickly.  The athlete that can switch between max contract and max relax in the shortest amount of time will generally be a better dynamic thrower/lifter.

Think about the weight throws and hammer.  They involve driving (contracting) the implement as hard as you possibly can immediately followed by sinking (relaxing).  This can be simlulated with catching a clean or snatch.  Just pulling only gives you the driving phase.

Obviously there are many guys on here that do not catch the lifts and have no problems with the throws, so this is athlete dependent.

thanks kurt and beau, yrs. of armwrestling have left me with a wrist with little to no flexibility, and when i catch a heavy clean it hurts like a ****** ****** so i went to what i call riccochet cleans, cleans with no rack at a high rate of speed for 3 to 4 reps, very xplosive, but i will try your way beau and see how it feels

+1

+1

So since I clean more than C I should throw the hammer further?  Why does this equation not work after the equal sign in real life?  Darn.  I guess I am a simpleton, but I catch the clean.  Always.  I mean if I did any movement other than deadlift, and I don't. 

C is also right, more doing and less thinking and talking would result in more distance.  Action - (think + talk) = Distance.    So grab an ammonia and do something, even if it is wrong. 

C. Smith wrote: ill +2 that.  People totally over science and over think training.  It's really not that hard.

Craig I agree on the train hard and do not overthink.  I also believe if you are going to train hard for a particular reason you should at least do the right things.

Louis Simmons is right that olympic lifts are not the end all be all of training for sport.... but to totally discount them is not the answer either.

Some of these discussions are not only for us in the now but for athletes later and the athletes we work with.  The day I have a "Craig Smith" type athlete show up on campus I will know better ways to train him.  I have not worked with a Craig Smith, Vierra, HBIII, and I know I have not worked with a Ferency. 

From discussion by others (you, KO etc) we can assume easily that you are a very fast twitch individual.  You have reached a good level of muscle strength and you lift to maintain that.  Your technique is good and you adapt well on the fly.  Your training is low but very intense and you allow for the CNS to be fresh when it matters on the field.  You have injuries that have maybe given you a an idea of how much training is too much.

I have found that I need a little of everything and more of a few things.  My best #'s come when I am doing both very dynamic olympic lifts (not always with a catch) and max effort (limit strength work)  both of these I try to do as explosively as possible. 

I also need to do more plyos which we do not talk about as much.  More agilty etc as the stronger in any of the lifts I get the more heavy I get in the feet.

If there is one main differnce I see in the ability of you and other of the top dogs is how quick you move.  I think that is another thread.

TT - I've tossed w. you a coupla times and all you need is longer arms , legs , torso and....well.....

Terry, Just don't offer him a lifetime supply of hair care/restoration products and you should be ok.......Paul

An old post by Adam Nelson from The Ring.

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nellie

10:29 PST, 10/08/2004

cleans with a catch
I, too, have read the articles that claim there's no real advantage of power clean versus a high pull. Maybe there isn't in theory, but my own experience states otherwise. There is something gratifying, physically and psychologically, about catching a clean. When I high pull, I can use more weight, but my form is never as good as when I catch. Plus, when I catch, my overall bodytiming and awareness improves dramatically. So maybe there are higher risks to catching, maybe there are no true advanatges over high pulls, but the good old fashioned power clean (with catch) leaves me with an overall sense of confidence and strength. And that just makes for good throwing.

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Ditto. I get more sense of a "pop" when I catch 'em.

Trainerterry wrote:   Craig I agree on the train hard and do not overthink.  I also believe if you are going to train hard for a particular reason you should at least do the right things. I have found that I need a little of everything and more of a few things.  My best #'s come when I am doing both very dynamic olympic lifts (not always with a catch) and max effort (limit strength work)  both of these I try to do as explosively as possible.  I also need to do more plyos which we do not talk about as much.  More agilty etc as the stronger in any of the lifts I get the more heavy I get in the feet.

A recent post got me searching around in the Articles section and I found this, which was right on point with respect to one of our more recent threads.  I wish we would hear more from Terry, as he really knows what he is talking about.

For those who were interested in periodization, workout design, and the nature of a balanced program, there is a TON of excellent information in the Articles section if you are willing to do some reading.  Remember that you have to click on "All" in the "Show Topics" window to see many of these articles and threads as they were posted some time ago.