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Cabers - How big is to big?

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McSanta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cabers - How big is to big?
    Posted: 10/06/05 at 3:13pm

My caber supply is running low and I am starting to make cabers from a supply of dry cedar and pine logs. 

I have finished making my first caber which I have to use this weekend -- It is 18' long 110# pine caber with a caber score of 840.  The weight/length ratio of 6.1 -- There is not much of a taper.

This seems to be a good Caber for A's.  Am I correct?

What size/score is unturnable?

Are the values in the table at the below website (Scottish Heavy Athletics) still good reference values?  I ask this because I am seeing bigger and heavier cabers being turned as the competition in the games increase.

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/8682/heavy/caber.htm

Thanks for your help.

Mark McVey

"The work of science is to substitute facts for appearances and demonstrations for impressions." -John Ruskin
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Wayne Hill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/05 at 4:08pm
According to the table, it should be a reasonable caber for Ams.  However, as I mentioned in another post, I have my doubts about the caber rating formula.  An example:  the caber used by the under-50's at the Masters World Championships rates all of 790, but only 8 out of 17 of the 40-44's, and 2 out of 10 of the 45-49's could turn it.

At the Glasgowlands games in July, only 1 of 9 Ams turned it (Marty Weimann, but not Steve Santoli, Sean McKay, Tony Robinson, or Hapy Mayer), and only 2 out of 7 Masters (those two being Dr. Bill and Dan Dillon, fer cryin' out loud).

At Pipes in the Valley last weekend, only Marty Weimann and Ryan McCarroll turned it.  Ryan got a 9:00, and I've seen him do better with a caber that rated about 1000.

This caber "turns bigger" than it rates.

-Wayne
"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kspell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/05 at 3:27am

Wayne

I appreciate your thoughts, but how many cabers have you personally scored or checked to macke sure that they were calculated correct?  I have made several cabers (I would be interested in how you make yours) and scored and verified many more.  although there is some deviation from caber to caber, I feel that the system does give you a good comparrison from one caber to another.  I other words; if you have a caber that scores 800 and you turn it 9 out of 10 times, you can be confident that when you get to a games and they have one that score 800 (even though it is a foot longer and a little heavier ((it has a higher taper factor) that you should be able to turn it.  Now I will give you that I'm assuming that the AD has run the numbers properly.  This is the best system I have seen to be able to compare caber to caber.

On the other hand if you throw in the east and are used to hardwood cabers and can turn a 19 ft. 130# caber and then you make a trip to the western states and you get a 19ft. 130# Lodge Pole pine caber with very little taper: you will find out that going by length and weight only does not compare two different cabers well.

I would love to experiment and test out another system or equation if you come up with one.

Cheers!

Kirk
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Wayne Hill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/05 at 6:42am
I hear you, Kirk.  I'm going by a limited sample here, but have seen enough to have my doubts.  I measured the following 3 cabers myself:
  • I built a 16' straight practice caber three years ago that weighs 85 lbs and thereby rates about 750, which I can turn roughly once in 3 picks.  I'm a weak shrimp, so that's not saying much.
  • The caber at MWC is 19'3" long and 86 lbs, rates 790, and is much, much, much harder to turn.
  • Dr. Bill's caber from the Southern New Hampshire games was 17'2" long, weighed 126 lbs, and balanced at a point that was 7'11" from the top.  It rated 1018.  I believe Ryan McCarroll had more trouble with my 790 than with Dr. Bill's 1018.
Now, please don't misunderstand me:  the idea of the caber formula is a great one, and the fomula seems to include all of the right influences (length, weight, and balance point/taper).  I'm just not sure these influences are reflected in the proper proportions.

If and when I work out what looks to me to be a better formula, I'll post a detailed discussion here.

I'm also going to put together a detailed discussion of my caber designs, hopefully in the near future.

-Wayne
"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kspell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/05 at 7:31am

there are other factors that I believe you just cannot calculate and compare between cabers:

Caber "flex", any bends or warps in the caber, the "handle"  I find that a stick that has a handle that is small enough to fit into my paws is easier to control and turn than one that has a large handle or no handle (if it is just cut straight and not rounded).

Just my 2 Cents

Cheers!

Kirk
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Wayne Hill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/05 at 11:59am
Your point is well taken.

The issue of providing a good handle caused the demise of my challenge caber.  The deal at Glasgowlands in July was that whoever turned it got to name it, but it will forever be known as poor ol' #5.

It was a 20' long, 126# beast that rated just over 1000.  It had a nice grip of 4-1/4" diameter at the bottom and a top end of 7", but the thin bottom section just couldn't take the abuse of the heavy top end in a miss.  It broke about 4-5' up from the bottom.

None of the smaller cabers has had any problems so far, although a bad miss with #4 last weekend had me a little worried for a minute there.

-Wayne
"We may be small, but we're slow." - MIT Rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coach Mac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/05 at 7:41pm
Good discussion and since we think that this is the
MOST mis-nderstood evet,,,my 2.5 cents...LOVE a
system to rate cabers...here are some more
variables...is the top cut straight... /   \ ect. Is the field
uphill...down hill...is the wind blowing...is the dirt-
grass-turf...WET or DRY...is the CABER...wet or
dry...is the Caber EVENT the 2nd-3rd-4th --5th ...8th
event of the day or two days...there are a TON of
variables and most of all I would say that 98.5 % of
the throwers today DON'T understand the bio-
mechanics of the event in the first place...!

Kee this going...GOOD STUFF !!!
Have a GREAT Day !
Rob " Coach Mac " Mac Kay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seckmrl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/05 at 1:59pm

After this weekend and a few other games this season I can say I am one of those who do not understand the biomechanics of the event as shown by my caber scores.... HAHAHA

This is a good question on cabers, that I could use help on as well for our games in 2006

THis is what we have in storage

A 11' 1" 29 WOMEN C 
B 12' 1" 35 WC
C 14' 5 1/2" 43.5 WBC
D 14' 9 3/4" 44.5 WBC
E 14' 6" 68.5 WBC
F 12' 5" 30 WC
G 15' 45.5 WBC
H 16' 7" 52 WAB
I 15' 8 1/2" 69.5 WAB
J
K 14' 11" 71 WB
L 16' 7 1/4 81 WA MC
M 17' 1" 78 MBC
N 17' 1 1/2" 103 MB
O 20' 1" 110 MA PRO
P 15' 10 1/2" 69.5 WA MC
Q 12' 2 3/4" 46.5 WBC
R 18' 3" 92 MAB 
S 16' 4"  51.5 WBC
T 19' 6"  129 MA PRO

 

letter designates it so the judges can pick them out quickly, then is the height and then weight and what I think might be the classes to throw them..  what do you think about the classes I put???

and what would be good gap fillers ???  I am looking at a few more 16+ 75+lbs, a few 17 1/2 + and 85+lbs, and one or 2 bigger ones closer to 20' and up to 115 or 120???

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimhoerricks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 2/03/06 at 3:56am
One of the things I love about Mesa is watching the caber slide and hop across the hard packed clay. Top cut really comes into play. I had one slide about a foot, then rotate to the shallow end of the cut (away from 12). You really have to be conscious of how you position the caber before the pic to account for this. This contrasts with a place like the old Loch Prado, where you throw can down hill, or the bogs that can happen at the Orange County fair grounds. For me, the top cut makes as much a difference as the handle.
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