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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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Posted: 2/08/15 at 3:12pm |
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A question I asked on FB.
How important is getting to parallel or lower as it relates to throws? Or is adding more weight to the bar and sacrificing a little depth better? It's something that's been on my mind for a while. |
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Sport Kilt
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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I think depth > weight, from a general strength and athletic stand point.
I suppose you could really argue specificity and determine you don't need to bend your knees any further than you do in any give throw/game situation. That seems like a pretty short sighted approach imo. Be strong throughout a FULL range of motion and your body and athletics will thank you for it. I wonder if this is in reference to a recent sky high squat video I saw from a HG athlete?
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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It is, but I've seen plenty of it lately.
Most have said to go low if you can, but there could be a place for both. I wonder if mixing a high box tap and go with 30-50 more lbs every 3-4 weeks could be beneficial. Perhaps it's just classic overthinking lol. |
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TheJeff696
Postaholic Joined: 8/17/10 Location: Dover, NH Status: Offline Points: 4599 |
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I think Gene Flynn said this (paraphrasing) in his log a few years back (and yes, Craig,I could go back and look but I'm lazy):
I don't throw any further squatting 600 pounds than I did when I squatted 500 pounds so I'm not going to worry about going any higher and focus on volume/speed Now this has nothing to do with squat depth but IMO if you're squatting decent amounts of weight and making improvements, I'd stick with what you're doing. I know you're close to 500 pounds @ 250ish pounds of BW which is great. If you were someone like me who doesn't squat near enough for their BW, it could be something to consider to add #s to squat. I think speed/technique have more effect on the distance of your throws than poundage in the weight room WITHIN REASON obviously lol Cant tell if I went down a separate rabbit hole but oh well, I like a good thread. |
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Jeff Kaste
"I think there's a Squatch in these woods..." |
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Duncan McCallum
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I totally broke 90. Haters. |
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The man in the arena.
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C. Smith
Admin Group Retired Joined: 8/30/04 Location: Antarctica Status: Offline Points: 6661443 |
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rob meulenberg
Postaholic Joined: 9/11/10 Status: Offline Points: 1316 |
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This thread is worthless without pics (or vids). |
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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To be fair, he is dealing with nagging stuff. He is a usually in the below parallel club.
Assuming we're talking about the same guy. |
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Sport Kilt
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C. Smith
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I just saw the video, I didn't see any context, comments, or commentary, so he could have very well said, "here's my high squat", and I wouldn't have known.
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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Sport Kilt
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Daniel McKim
Postaholic World Champ - '11 Joined: 8/30/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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I've been reading up on John Smith and his view on squats. Given the power and success of his throwers, it's worth looking into. Here's a great post that Peter did in '08 about it. As with any training, find what works best for you.
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jonhereth
Senior Member Joined: 2/18/14 Status: Offline Points: 497 |
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That's interesting . I love SSB squats but I've always found that my max back squat is significantly more than my SSB due to the upright posture the specialty bar demands. He says in that article that you should be able to handle. upwards of 130% of your max back squat with the SSB bar. Maybe I'm doing them wrong?
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rob meulenberg
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Jon, I think he is probably talking about the way SSB squats were originally meant to be done. That is holding onto a rack or something and using that to help you during the squat. This indeed makes it easier. The way most of us use the bar now makes the lift substantially harder than a low or high bar back squat.
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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That was a good read Dan. Thanks!
I've never done a saftey squat before. Neither gym I go to has one.
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Sport Kilt
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rob meulenberg
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I just googled "Fred Hatfield SSB" (he was one of the first people use the bar), and the first video hit was our very own Sean Urquhart. This is way they were originally meant to be done.
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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I think Sean would agree that these are much easier than back squats. Also, lol at whoever gave this video a thumbs down.
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jsully
Postaholic Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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What's the point in a 500lb squat if you can't move 225 at 1m/s? How will that translate into athleticism?
If you want to throw far, then throw a lot. I've squatted 400 and I've squatted 600 and at no point as the 56 ever felt lighter because I squatted heavier. My WFD series in Estes was the best series I've ever had with 48'8 and a foul at 93'11 with 3 marked over 89ft. My training leading up? Squat up to a heavy single for one set followed by paused squats in the 50% range. Then very light jump squats in the 25-35% range supersetted with broad jumps. On top of that my conditioning day had light (175lb) high rep jerks and front squats in it. My best throws are when I'm working submax weights and moving fast as shit. |
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rob meulenberg
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Jake, that's a strawman. No one is talking about speed. I would find it shocking that a legit 500# squatter couldn't move 225 with a lot of speed.
It's been debated on this site very often about the importance of strength. I think the general consensus (at least form what I've read) is that technique trumps strength until your technique is good enough that strength matters. You are an extremely technically sound thrower who is also strong. Now just because you have training cycles where you are training lighter and throwing far doesn't mean that is the only reason you threw farther. I would bet there are times you threw far when you were training heavy too. |
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jsully
Postaholic Prefers the D... Joined: 9/13/10 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4096 |
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I agree that strength is important, but how important?
At what point do you realize that you're strong enough to throw far as shit and all that really matters now is length of time of application of force and the speed of which you're able to produce that force? If you're squatting 500lbs, imo, you're strong enough to throw the weights and hammers in the top 10%. I can't speak for stones, we all know how that goes, amirite Craig? #no55in2015 In contrast, if you want to turn big cabers, I think you have to squat at least 1,300lbs fml |
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jonhereth
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Interesting.. Thank You. |
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jonhereth
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^^ This. Granted I'm still a rookie at this stuff but I actually found last year that as the season went on and I threw more my throws got better even as my strength dropped. |
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C. Smith
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I've said it on here a bunch. There is 'strong' and there is 'strong enough to throw far', and they are not the same thing. There's probably a basal strength level to throw far that's generally accepted by all of us, with a few variations here and there for individuality and anthropometry. I know for me what those numbers are, and I suspect anyone who's been throwing for a while knows what they are for them.
If your goal is to be the best thrower and throw as far as you can, I hope it's realized pretty early. I see cases of classic overthinking though time and time again. It's so silly simple to get strong, and takes such basic movements, yet people want to complicate it all the time, but I digress...
lol, there is that pesky technique factor regarding some throws.
This sounds about right. Caber and WOB are really the only events that I can tell when my strength levels are down below what I like them to be. |
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rob meulenberg
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Jake, I don't necessarily disagree with you. "How important is strength"? Well, like Craig said, it depends. If you only squat 300# (and you are a bigger guy), then you may need a bit more time in the weight room. If you squat 500#, you probably have enough strength to do well.
I know that I don't need to get stronger. My throws were big (for me) last season and I trained very little. But I like to train, and train heavy, so I do it. I think Craig's point of overthinking comes into play. Nate is a pretty strong guy already. If he squats 495 below parallel or 585 above parallel, would it really make that much of a difference? Probably not. It's not rocket science. I've been pushing myself in the gym hard the last 3 months (hardest I've pushed in the last year) and all my lifts are going up. Hell, my arms have even grown an inch. LOL. |
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Daniel McKim
Postaholic World Champ - '11 Joined: 8/30/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
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It's all interesting, and again, these events are a mix of strength and technique. Technique is the hard part that takes more time than the strength. Jon, in all fairness, your technique got a lot better this summer, too, so don't forget the learning curve you have of just starting out. Granted, you're also super athletic, so you have to take that into account. Not fair.
I am looking at my Tendo as I type this. I will be working with it late in the season this year, as I try to mix strength with bar speed. It will be interesting to see how it works, but I will be using it as part of my "peak" phase coming off a strength phase. Strength AND speed. Will be fun!
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jonhereth
Senior Member Joined: 2/18/14 Status: Offline Points: 497 |
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This is true...
This is exaggerated...
This is awesome.. I want to play.... |
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Nathan Parker
Postaholic Arnold Am........ check. Time to go Pro. Joined: 7/12/11 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1515 |
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You can't fool me Jon. You are light years ahead of me after my first year, plus you're a strong fella. I predict a big year for you. |
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Sport Kilt
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SeanUrq
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Yay Rob...I'm famous...kinda-sorta-maybe-probably not.
My SSB "Hatfield" style is much higher than how I've been doing them this off-season. The traditional "Hatfield" style I did 455 x 5 quite easily at a much lower bodyweight and was nowhere near the strength levels I am now in the back squat. This off-season, I chose to swallow my ego and perform SSB Squats with my hands on the bar and my 1 rep max is 455 this way. I did this in hopes that by working my back more to maintain good posture with the SSB, my regular back squat might increase. So to go along with what Jon had said, I am similar to his situation. My SSB Squat is 455 while my back squat is 490 (hopefully more by the end of the month). Does a lighter guy need to have that 500+ squat (or whatever we decide is strong) to throw the 56 with the big guys? I'm barely 250 on a good day so my feeling is that my added strength may benefit my lack in size to counter the 56. Now I know I still have plenty of work to be done to improve my technique but I can't help but think the strength will allow me to be competitive until I become more technically sound.
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Mean Well, Speak Well, Do Well
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C. Smith
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The strength will NEVER be a detriment. It will not help with the 56 as much as strength + bodyweight would. Another 15-25lbs bodyweight would do wonders for you and Nate, consistency-wise. But not everyone wants to do that, I suppose. |
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CHAD
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I love those cheaty squats. They just seem to make you strong all over. Always seemed to help my pull go up, too.
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...Josh
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jsully
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This makes me ponder what size really achieves.. If your tech is spot on, do you NEED the extra weight to "counter" the 56? Matty Ice (Doherty) went 44/89 last year and he weighs what? 240? His hammers were also in the 115/145 range as well. Yes, he's extremely technical and he's super twitchy. I'm curious to know what his top end strength levels are at vs top end speed-strength levels. Hmm.. so it would seem there is also a line between technique and bodyweight similar to the line between technique and strength, yes? If you're throwing the weight correctly, you're getting your feet down and pushing it around vs those that get their feet down and "pull" it into the field. I would guess the pullers are the ones that really need that extra bodyweight. Common denominator = technique. Watch videos. Do drills. Throw. Repeat several times per week. |
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