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Debate: LtWeight records thrown in a diff class

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Flame of Idaho View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flame of Idaho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Debate: LtWeight records thrown in a diff class
    Posted: 8/25/14 at 2:54pm
So the recent Sheaf record by a lightweight brings up an interesting topic (And before you get all defensive, let it go, grow up and have a real conversation. I'm not attacking anyone.):
 
If a lightweight athlete throws a world or national record while competing in a different class, should it still be considered THE record?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrittneyBoswell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 2:57pm
Let's include Masters Women in the discussion, as well. These are the two groups of throwers that often don't have enough athletes on the field to make a full class, but still wish to actively participate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 3:02pm
If an athlete meets the criteria for the class (weight, age, etc...) and it's thrown in a legit competition, then it should count as a record. 

Just please stop calling class records, world records.  There is only one world record. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flame of Idaho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 3:22pm

So far, I mostly gather a "yes" if they weigh in the morning of and other record verification measures are in place. Some have pointed out that this situation is similar to Masters athletes each get records based on age at that games. However, I do see some items of note. Most masters almost always have a general Masters group to throw in, which means they are throwing the same weight sets (i.e. 42#). When one moves to the Amateur groups where a 56# is thrown throughout the competition, the whole atmosphere is changed. Maybe it's an advantage, maybe it's a disadvantage.

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I see it somewhat akin to exhibition throwing events. If an athlete throws 7-9 events with others at a demonstration games, it is generally accepted that any records thrown during that time do not count as "official". The reason being ...?...if all the rules are followed--it still isn't the same as a declared competion. So I could see a parallel with a LW or Master throwing in the heavy classes--it is a different scenario (to a certain extent).
 
In cases where there is no LW class offered at a games it seems like it could be more acceptible for one to make arrangements with the AD where some records might be possible. What about where a games DOES offer a LW class, yet the athlete chooses to compete elsewhere? I think if it is a Masters Lightweight, it would be fine because the set of weights and conditions are the same. But moving to the 56# classes presents a different set of conditions that is inconsistent with general LW competitions. The throw is still awesome, but is it a CLASS record? (Oh and it does seem that if a LW is one to be breaking any WORLD records, it does sound a little suspicious if he isn't competing as an A rather than B or C. )
I know a few very skilled LW's who compete in the A class simply because they aren't challenged enough locally in LW classes. I wanna say if they make the weight and the AD is on board, then yes, the records count.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flame of Idaho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 3:27pm
Good point, Craig.
CLASS record.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 3:53pm
I vote yes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 4:03pm

Ugh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Beech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 7:49pm
Ok suppose everyone on NASGA agrees. What happens then? Do we revise the official record-keeping SOP and then communicate the changes to the ADs who run games sanctioned by our governing body?

If I sound like a broken record (heh), it's because before we have substantive debates on this topic, there are gigantic pieces of the puzzle missing. There are huuuuuge steps between where we are as a sport and the point where you nail down processes and regulations like this. First and foremost the sport needs to decide it wants to be something different than it currently is, and that's an interesting debate, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Beech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 7:58pm
Meanwhile, as this debate rages on, people only found out that our sport crowned a professional world champion because he posted it on Facebook.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Beech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by brandell brandell wrote:


Ugh

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 9:55pm
The only issue I see is the advantage one could get by taking "extra" throws by winning an event.

Example:  Lightweight thrower decides to compete in the "B" class because the lightweight class is not contested at the event, and he didn't qualify as an "A" or it was full or whatever.  Assuming this, he could then take extra throws in some or all of the events, therefore increasing his chances of attaining the class record.

I can see both sides of the issue, but in the end, I would vote the opposite way, and say class records should only be set while competing in-class, this should be true for Master's and amateur records also.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slfarr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/25/14 at 11:04pm
I can see why that would be a problem, but I would imagine that if they are taking shots at a world record, they would probably be winning the event in a lightweight class and getting those extra throws anyway. I'm not sure if that's really an advantage if that's the case. That being said, I don't know if that makes it alright to do so. Just wanted to throw in that perspective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flame of Idaho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 10:50am
Mike Beech, there are many things made simpler with a single governing body, but you don't NEED one for universal (mostly) change to occur. As we've seen with the women's masters groups throwing 21# instead of 28#. More and more games that offer the class are following suit. As more games add the class, they will go with the trend. There will always be dissenters, but majority rules, and if someone doesn't like it, they do their own thing which  may or may not last.
If more games/AD's allow the accommodation to the lightweight throwers where it comes up, especially at the bigger established ones, then many will follow whether part of the same organization or not.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 10:57am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ewhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 11:36am
I think the throw counts as a throw for the class in the competition.  If you are an AM and you beat the PRO record (I think Andy Vincent did this, I could be wrong), it's an AM record and not a PRO record.  By that same logic if you are a lightweight throwing AM and your throws are AM throws, not lightweight throws.  Another example is the Miller boys, as masters they could possibly throw a common implement and beat an AM record.  That doesn't mean they set an AM record, it just means they set a really awesome masters record.

Long story short, your throws count towards the class you are throwing.  That's my take anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by ewhite ewhite wrote:

I think the throw counts as a throw for the class in the competition.  If you are an AM and you beat the PRO record (I think Andy Vincent did this, I could be wrong), it's an AM record and not a PRO record.  By that same logic if you are a lightweight throwing AM and your throws are AM throws, not lightweight throws.  Another example is the Miller boys, as masters they could possibly throw a common implement and beat an AM record.  That doesn't mean they set an AM record, it just means they set a really awesome masters record.



This entire post is incorrect. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 12:25pm
I say no.

Compete in the respective class if you want said respective class record.

If you're <200 and you decide to compete with the big boys in the As and throw an 80ft lwd, then you threw an 80ft lwd and that's the end of it. If you wanted that record, you should have done it in the LW class.

If I can't go to a local competition and throw with the As, set a world record and have it count. Why should everyone else? Note: I'm not throwing world records, it's hypothetical. You could sub my name for Dan McKim if you wanted to argue the point.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 12:35pm
I'll expand a little on Eric's post:

First, there are no 'Pro records', there are just World Records, which happen to be held by Pro throwers (which obv makes sense).

(FFS, please stop calling class records, world records!  There is no lightweight world records that exist, there are just lightweight class records, because those implements have been thrown further)

There have been instances where an Amateur thrower has held the World Record.  I can think of two off the top of my head since 2005, and one as recently as last year. 

Braidy and Brent, while fantastic throwers, haven't thrown anything even close (sans Braidy's one hammer throw) to the Amateur records. 

If it's a legit comp, and you meet the criteria of being small or old, then I haven't heard a compelling argument as to why it shouldn't count.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nathan Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 1:32pm
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Braidy held the amateur record for sheaf with 39' until Travis recently broke it. He set it while competing as a master. Which is correct. You are an amateur regardless of age or weight if your not a pro.

As for the light weight "debate", who wants to be the guy who keeps a record on a technicality? I wouldn't claim a record that way. If someone weighed up and threw higher then he holds the record regardless of what class he threw in.

That's the idea of a record right? To exceed the best previous achievement. Which was done and should count, as Braidy's counted when he threw as an master.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agm_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:


I'll expand a little on Eric's post:

First, there are no 'Pro records', there are just World Records, which
happen to be held by Pro throwers (which obv makes sense).

Yep.

Quote
(FFS, please stop calling class records, world records!  There is no lightweight world records that exist, there are just lightweight class records, because those implements have been thrown further)

Nope. They're world records for that class (as opposed to, say, a field record), so while it's incorrect to say that Daniel Goulet set a world record without qualification, it's correct to say he set a lightweight world record. Or are you suggesting that Naim Süleymanoğlu never set a world record just because larger men lifted more? Like it or not, we have weight classes, and weight classes get their own records, in any sport that keeps records.

Also, age groups also get their own records, and they're called world records (as long as they're properly labeled). Go look up masters or youth records in track and field, weightlifting, swimming, cycling - they're all called world records by their governing bodies. You may not like that particular terminology, but you don't get to outvote the rest of the sporting world.

Quote
There
have been instances where an Amateur thrower has held the World Record. 
I can think of two off the top of my head since 2005, and one as
recently as last year. 

Yep, Eric Frasure and Nick Kahanic have both done it.

Quote
Braidy and Brent, while fantastic
throwers, haven't thrown anything even close (sans Braidy's one hammer
throw) to the Amateur records. 

Braidy tied the US record and set the Amateur record in the 16lb sheaf earlier this year. And just lost both to Travis Gardner, who now holds the US record as an amateur. He's within two feet in the light hammer, and although 3' 7.5" in the heavy hammer is a significant distance, it depends on how you're defining close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrittneyBoswell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 2:36pm
Sully, if the class is offered I am with you.

HOWEVER as an AD(Co-AD/scorekeeper etc) of a half dozen games or more a year, if I don't have 4 of any one flavor of thrower, they don't get a class of their own on the field that day. Logistics & cash come into play here.

SO - if the class isn't offered, and the thrower meets the requirements it is on the AD to decide if they count them as class throws. They are still doing all the events, all the throws, they are legit, the weights legit - the record stands. Make sense?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rknebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 3:12pm
Records are dumb...

Unless I ever break one...then their awesome!

I'd be curious to hear from some people that actually have records or could at least be in the ball park of breaking one. As of now the rest of us are talking about something that really doesn't even have much to do with us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rknebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by C. Smith C. Smith wrote:



FFS, please stop calling class records, world records!  There is no lightweight world records that exist, there are just lightweight class records, because those implements have been thrown further.
  


You would think people would catch on after the umpteenth time being corrected, but I'll bet you it keeps happening!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rknebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by agm_ agm_ wrote:


Nope. They're world records for that class (as opposed to, say, a field record), so while it's incorrect to say that Daniel Goulet set a world record without qualification, it's correct to say he set a lightweight world record. Or are you suggesting that Naim Süleymanoğlu never set a world record just because larger men lifted more? Like it or not, we have weight classes, and weight classes get their own records, in any sport that keeps records.

Also, age groups also get their own records, and they're called world records (as long as they're properly labeled). Go look up masters or youth records in track and field, weightlifting, swimming, cycling - they're all called world records by their governing bodies. You may not like that particular terminology, but you don't get to outvote the rest of the sporting world.



I disagree with this point. World Records are defined as "the best record in the whole world". There is no mention of weight or age of the individual. The 1 person that throws an implement the furthest no matter their weight, age, etc... is the one and only "World Record" holder. Everyone is holds the record for their class. At least that's the way I see it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jsully Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by BrittneyBoswell BrittneyBoswell wrote:

Sully, if the class is offered I am with you.


Makes sense. So if the Pro class isn't offered, I shouldn't have any kickback from everyone if I set a WR on an Amateur field, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrittneyBoswell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 4:23pm
Difference being you would be playing down to their playing up...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agm_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 4:26pm
If there's no pro class, and the AD allows you to compete with the amateurs (which would make it an open class), then yes, if you set a record it would be legit, assuming it's otherwise a legal throw. But if you're just throwing as a demo, in the same flight with ams but not competing against them, then it would not count.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ewhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 4:27pm
Why not just take the approach that you are what you are class-wise?  If you show up to a game and you're the only lightweight then your throws are lightweight throws and you automatically get 1st place.  This would be similar to the power lifting approach of some federations.  That way everyone gets to throw and everyone gets a chance to set records in their own class.   To help the ADs out you could say that prizes are only awarded if there are 3 or more athletes.   This would work especially well in states where there are less than 3 of a class, like here in Texas we have very few lightweight athletes.

I'm very new to the sport (finishing my second season this year) but I think there are a lot of smart people around so this shouldn't be too difficult a thing to figure out.  I will say I was really surprised we don't have a governing body like a power lifting federation or something similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adambrezina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 7:30pm
Doesn't uspa abd other federations make you pay per class your in? Let's say you want to be open and master in a certain weight class. Now if you are saying it's legal, that lightweight should pay for two fees if you are comparing it to powerlifting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silverback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/26/14 at 8:01pm
The only way a master can set a record with a 56 is by throwing A class.  They don't throw the 56 in a master's game, thus my WOB record w the 56.  A world record for a dude over 45, haha know that is frosting C's cake.  I know, it is just a record.  So if you qualify for the class and record, it does not appear to matter what class you were entered in at the game, nor should it.  Please do not let us speak power lifting over this sport, we certainly do not need to follow anything they have done since Ernie took us another direction way back when, no offense to your pot stir brother Adam. 
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