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AncientOne View Drop Down
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    Posted: 8/03/06 at 3:59am

Hey-

Do you all recommend the mixed grip?

Are there any concerns about bicep tendon on the supinated side?

-Back2Basics

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thegnome View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 4:21am
Finally a conversation I feel I can add something too instead of just asking questions.  I had a biceps tear around 15 years ago while doing deadlifts (supinated side).  Didn't require surgery, but it was fairly ugly and needed alot of work.  Since I was young and stupid I wasn't patient enough, and it still sort of hurts sometimes.  Now when doing DL's I have some things that seem to keep it from getting too sore.  When doing reps (5's or 3's) I use an overhand grip with wraps.  Might all be in my head but seems to relieve the strain.  This was hard because I was moraly opposed to Wrist Straps (All my PL friends would laugh at me).  On the occasions I do singles or going for a reps PR it's no straps.  Doesn't count if I'm wearing them.  That usually hurts but then I go too a chiro and she does some voodoo stuff too it and it gets better.   I've tried an overhand hook grip but I just can't seem to get it right and I pop out above the knees even with easy weights. 
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Hapy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 4:38am
Not to hijack your thread, but I have a DL question also:

I have a very hard time with heavier weights cracking the first 12" or so off
the ground. I have been able to pick up some modified Dinnie stones one
time which were 775lb+ but the handles were probably 20" or so off the
ground. But with a standard bar my max is about 500 (or less most days).

I have a feeling that I try to protect my back by rowing the weights up with
just my arms, rather than using my back/legs to get it moving. Any truth
here?
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thegnome View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 5:08am
DL are the one thing I have a mechanical advantage for.  I'm only 5'7" and have really long (for a guy that's 5'7") arms.  The trade-off is I can't BP for poop.  Try to remember to think about pushing the floor down, not pulling the weight.  If you are starting your leg drive before your arms are locked you're wasting the best part of the push.  Also you'd be less likely to hurt your back than you are trying to protect it.  Try this and see if it helps...Get set up like you normally would with an easy tripple in front of a mirror or with a partner.  SLOWLY start to do the DL.  Right when you feel the weight start to move stop and check where you are.  I'll bet your hips are high and back. If I'm right I could show you what to do, but I'm having a heck of a time trying to write it.  Maybe one of the other guys can put it into words, or talk to "flea".  I think he was putting up some really good push/pull numbers.  Recently bought another can of 3M 77, and thought of you.  Take care.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Betz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 6:08am
I would do a pronated hook grip. If you deadlift with a hook grip in the off-season, it will help you in your throwing season with relaxing the arm with a secure hook.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Pinkerton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 6:55am

1 reason for being "weak" off the floor for a lot of people is that their shoulders are too far in front of the bar.  Once the bar is high enough it very easy to lean back and get your weight into it.  It's not so easy to do that off the floor.

Another option, one which I wouldn't know unless I saw you, is that you have weak glutes and/or hamstrings.  I know that sounds a little crazy since you pull well from up higher but what I've learned is that when guys pull from up high the start with their hips already pushed though and then just straighten their legs to get the weight up.  Making it more of a quarter squat than a high pull.  Again I couldn't know with out watching but that's my guess. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sqeezemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 6:56am

Hapy, if you're sticking off the floor, try sinking a bit lower at the start and keeping your shoulders behind the bar. It's your hamstrings that will get that thing moving. In the past, low box squats with lots of band tension have helped me get through that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 7:55am
Ok hook grip question.  How many fingers are you using over your thumb.? I know that's an odd question, but since I'm sorta small I have a hard time getting my hand around a bar and more than one finger over my thumb.  Is that why my hook grip sucks?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sqeezemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 9:02am

As many fingers as you can get over the thumb is good. One is fine, two is fine.

As shown here, there is no such thing as too small of a hand to hook grip.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 9:55am
I didn't know Precious used a hook grip.  That definately gives me some inspiration.  On a side note, I heard a rumor they were making a big movie about his life story, wonder if it ever got off the ground?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skullsplitter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 11:30am

Gnome, Gillingham pulls close to 900 with an over hand grip.  Lose the straps and your body will adapt.  Have you tried switching your in the reverse grip?

Hapy, come to my house for a deadlift workout sometime.  Until then, try this. I pull in 2 phases.  1) I look down at the floor, at a 45 degree head posture and I push my feet into the floor, almost wedging myself under the bar. Keep the bar close to your shins.  My goal is to get the bar to my knees. 2) Once the bar crosses my knees I slam my hips forward to finish.  Look up Benedickt Magnusson on some of his deadlift blogs.  That is the way I pull and this may help you.  If you sit back and use more legs that may help, (this is the Drew Hickey method), but you will be limited by how much you squat (Drew can squat a ton). Keep the rep range in the 1 to 3's for multiple sets this time of year.  If you want I can post or send a deadlift routine cycle that I got from Mark Phillipi.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 12:04pm
Kevin, a mixed grip is fine, as long as you do it right.  The risk of a biceps tendon rupture is real, though, so you have to pay attention.

When you set up, actively straighten the elbow of the arm with the supinated grip before you pull.  This feels strange at first, but that should give you a hint of why so many people have torn their biceps.  Don't bend the elbow at any time during the pull.  If you follow this advice, a tendon tear is very unlikely.

-Wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AncientOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 1:28pm

Wayne, Sean-

Thanks, I'm at a point in my season where I'm past my focus events (Nationals and Worlds), and am thinking about foundation work. 

I admit to being a novice with the deadlift. However, I've tried both a clean grip and a mixed grip, with/without straps, with/without wraps and with/without a belt. I haven't experienced any thrills from the darn thing yet, but am willing to give it a few more months of work.

Tonight I went with Sean's advice to start pulling with the hook in a pronated grip. I can stand it up to about 250lbs, past that it just distracts me too much. I finished with my normal clean grip up to 375lbs with no, no, no. Would like to get into the 400 club! 

And the grip was my limiting factor. I've done more with straps, of course,  but am trying to get over it. I kinda like just going naked,... but with just a little chalk. 

Thanks again,

-KR188 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nesa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 1:34pm
Deads!!...my favorite. "A death for a life!"...real simple guys...grab the bar whichever way is comfortable for you...and stand up! The body is a wonderful piece of machinery and it will find it's own mechanical advantageous position for your body...don't overthink it...let your body do it's thing. Ahola pulls with more low back...Coan pulls with more hips...how does your body pull?? you won't know until you let it find it's own groove. Remember, "you do not deserve to be alive if you can't do deadlift"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Jayster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 1:48pm

unless your in a powerlifting meet you dont need to use that stupid grip. what event is it that you pick something up like that at a games, is that how you pick up your laundrey basket when you have to do the laundry because you threw so shitty at the last games your wife says thats all your good for!!!!!

[oh!! i'm sorry i just got caught up in something that happend to a friend once not ME]

save a bicep just use an overhand grip, deadlifts are bad enough on the tendons and ligaments without that stupid grip ask someone who lost one that way[inside tendon left arm surgeon said there was no reason to fix it]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Jayster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 1:51pm
i forgot to mention,STRAPS, STRAPS, STRAPS, STRAPS ESPECIALLY FOR US MASTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thegnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 2:23pm
Did you mean switch your hands in the reverse grip?  If so then the answer is no, because that would have been a smart and simple thing to do, and that just ain't me.  Guess what I'm going to try in a few weeks?  If that works it will put a serious dent in my chiro's business.   Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Skullsplitter Skullsplitter wrote:

Hapy, come to my house for a deadlift workout sometime. 

Ok, Bill, count on it - I really need to improve my technique in my lifting, not just deads, but squats, bench, and olympic also. Figure a nice bottle of Scotch we can share afterwards would be good payment for the coaching

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim Pinkerton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/03/06 at 4:30pm

MasterDeadlifter,

If you haven't been pulling much then you'll be in the 400 club in no time due to practice alone.  And now that its "off season" I know you won't be 188 for long.  So that will help too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 2:04am
One other small point:  if you haven't done a lot of deadlifting and realize you're grip-limited, then you're very grip-limited.

In DL, if your grip is marginal, your pull will be inhibited and you'll think you're running out of gas.  If you then improve your grip by adding chalk, alternating your grip, hooking your grip, or using straps, you suddenly find you're "stronger".  Consequently, experienced DLers tend to know how to get a good grip.

I used to use a belt for heavy sets (say, above 85 or 90% of max), but then went a long time lifting submaximally so I didn't need one.  When I went back to heavy lifting, I found the belt very awkward, so I ditched it.  I've gone to max beltless any number of times since then with no problems.

-Wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 2:16am
Buddy hull would be a good persona to ask this..he is a old school lifter.

www.buddyhull.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AncientOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 3:01am

Hey-

Interesting, ... not much consenus but lots of passion.

Jayster- you asked what event do you pick something up with that grip at a games? That made me think.

I do pick up cabers (when I'm by myself) to put them away with a mixed grip. I find the middle, squat, hands on each side, ... then clean em. You are right, its not really part of the competition. However, when I am faced with a big caber its the only way to pick it up. 

Why do you emphasize the straps? or did you mean wraps?

-K

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G-man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 4:25am

the reason for the rev grip is ........to improve your grip ....with these you won't have grip issues
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skullsplitter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 5:18am
Straps for deadlifts....Hey Silverback and Nesa what do you think?  Next we will be talking about weightlifting gloves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Jayster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 5:36am

or maybe even gloves in the games!!,i only use straps to pull more weight grip strength is not an issue with me.

7th man in the world to close the #3 ironmind grippers and hope to close the #4,s sometime in 2007

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AncientOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 5:38am

Gman-

Aye, maybe you missed it above, but ... I'm working on deadlifts without straps, wraps or belts, ... only chalk.

It appears that my grip is limiting me to sub-400lbs.

Say I did a workout of 10 sets including 5-7 singles up around +90%1RM, how often should I go back? How many days or whatever between deadlift workouts?  

-K   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Geisler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 5:48am

Marry a 400lb+ woman and pull her around by the hair.  If that doesn't make you tougher, nothing will.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AncientOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 6:27am

Geisler-

Wow, that's an idea!

But why would I have to marry her?

-K

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 8:08am
Originally posted by AncientOne AncientOne wrote:

It appears that my grip is limiting me to sub-400lbs.

Say I did a workout of 10 sets including 5-7 singles up around +90%1RM, how often should I go back? How many days or whatever between deadlift workouts?



Kevin,

I gairawntee I could have you lifting 400 lbs or more in one session.

Most people will say that you should DL once a week, and that you should max only very occasionally (but you aren't maxing if you're grip-limited).  Then there are those that claim to max once a week, which I think strains the definition of "max".

-Wayne

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nesa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8/04/06 at 8:45am

The first thing you need to do is find a good pair of shoes...flat hard rubber soles...a good pair of tight socks to keep the calfs warmed up...decent knee wraps...tight enough to stop sideways motion but loose enough to allow flexing...a comfortable pair of shorts...snug in the hips but room for the legs to move...not too long because they'll catch on the knees...a solid belt...velcro ones are pretty good because it allows you pull it as tight as you can...a sleeve-less shirt to allow proper shoulder rotation...head band, wrap, or cap to stop the sweet from dripping into your eyes...elbow wraps to keep the bicep attachment point warm and to not allow over-extension...strong wrist wraps and a good covering of chalk...then...and here's the key...GET THE HELL OUT OF THE GYM AND STICK TO JAZZERCISE!! None of this stuff will ever help if you're not strong to begin with...just pick the GD weight up!

 

My 2 cents for what it's worth...

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