Front Squats vs. Back Squats

Mark,

I thought someone might call me on that, but decided to leave well-enough alone.  I probably should either not have said anything or else explained myself further.  I did make it clear that this was not a universal opinion.  You are certainly correct that John Smith (a notable exception), his athlete Dan Taylor, Louie Simmons' athlete Kevin Akins, and several HG athletes use(d) box squats to varying extents.  I am not aware of many T&F throwers who do/did.

Charles Poliquin certainly advocates against box squats for athletes other than powerlifters, and he is largely responsible for the weight training programs used by Adam Nelson.  I have copied a post from Nelson himself below, as well as a detailed post from Poliquin.  Jud Logan is also a disciple of Poliquin, although I know he also trained with and was influenced by Simmons earlier in his career.  However, it is very clear that most of the routines and techniques he uses and advocates are borrowed directly from Poliquin.  Jud is on record as saying the second-most important lift for throwers is the Olympic front squat, with the clean-grip power snatch being the most important.  He has also explained that he really backed off the very heavy back squats etc. during the second half of his career, indicating that this type of training was incompatible with high-level throwing.

With respect to Jurgen Schult, I would be AMAZED if he ever did what North Americans call "box squats".  I suspect this is a misinterpretation of what might be called "bench squats", which were a staple of the German throwers in particular.  These are done down to a bench/box, but in contrast to "box squats" the bench is simply used as a trigger, with the athlete exploding upwards as soon as the bench is touched lightly.  At no time does one actually sit on the bench prior to rising, unlike the box squat.  These are generally done to a 90 degree knee angle, i.e. 2-3 inches above parallel, but sometimes even higher, especially in season.

Adam Moderator Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 601

Posted:     Post subject: I can't speak for Poliquin on box squats. I've never spoken to him about this. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the extreme interpretation of the box squat. _________________ Adam Throw Fair, Throw Far, Throw Clean!

I'm with you, Jeff. Box squats have always been a staple for me, and always help jack up my front and back squats. I use a ton of variations with them, generally for 4 week cycles, then cycle back to either front or back squats...depending on the time of year.

Mike, you want to avoid relaxing your post chain, but focus on releasing your hips. You see a lot of guys who box squat sitting and rocking back on the box. This is unnecessary. The key is releasing the hips. It's a suble movement that is noticable if you make sure your shins are positioned at an angle of around 110 degrees. I'd suggest watching Mike Kroczaleski, he nails it.

You might also want to play around with different heights in terms of the boxes you use. Generally at the start of my box squat cycle I'll spend 2 weeks using a box that is just slightly higher than parallel. After 2 weeks I'll move to box around the 14" range.

For me, box squats = gains and farther throws.

Peter Ingleton wrote:  and the other Pros?

Here's my thoughts then...box squats are dumb.

Dave,

First, you are obviously right.  Second, I hope so too (but have serious doubts - enough said).  Third, there is little if anything about the DDR's lifting programs that would require significant modification for clean athletes, unlike the pro bodybuilding routines.  Fourth, although he was obviously "on", at the 1988 Olympics Timmermann was supposedly only about 252# at 6'4" tall (while clean at that moment), and never got above 265 - not exactly a monster.

BTW, I find your tongue-in-cheek reference to Rocky IV ironic given the long-term rumours about Stallone and his well-publicized troubles in Australia last year.

The part that always gets to me when these discussions occurr is the constant referencing of what certain elite athletes do.... now that they are elite or have been for some time.  On a regular basis I get our athletes (small DIII college) who bring up pro or DI strength programs they get copies of.  Last week a kid started discussing Alber Pujols and his training.  I looked at the kid and said that I have never met an athlete like Pujols so why would I have one do the same.  I wish there was an article about what Timmerman was doing when he was 15... how did these athletes develope to the point where they now rely on certain exercises.

The basic need for an exercise should address the athlete, their strengths and most important their weaknesses.  I start all athletes with a basic Gray Cook functional screen.  Granted most of these athletes are not at the training level of most who have posted.  One of the first tests is an overhead squat....many lack the mechanics and stability to accomplish the exercise.  So if that is a weakness I have the exercise added.  To help teach the movement I go with box squats often- athlete sits like on a chair and stands up- wo very basic easy movement.  then work with athlete raising hands above head from a seat- stand with arms still overhead.

For front squats - I believe it places the athlete in a strong athletic position for many if not all sports. 

My thought on the box squat is I love them to no end.  Within 2 weeks of ACL surgery I have my athletes doing a modified box squat.  It is very easy to teach and learn.  Most people who have trouble squatting have trouble with the mechanics of lowering themselves under stress.  The box squat can help place focus on standing up which we can all do.  I believe the box squat -especially if a foam pad is placed on teh box- is easier on the joints -Westside has been working with this-another great job by Simmons.  The hardest part of the squat is often the stopping at the bottom.  The only prblem with the box squat would rest with those who focus on the fact that you are not in an athletic position and that the butt ends up too far back and we are not in a good athletic position. 

I get a lot of therapists who are against box squats because of the spinal load etc.  I tell them if you maintain proper posture it is not there.  I believe you should work both touch and go on the box as well as a pause to unload the hips.  The first takes advantage of the stretch reflex while the pause will lessen the stretch reflex.

For what it's worth, I do box squat but VERY rarely go heavy that way. I like to use them on a speed day. Generally banded and as often as not in touch and go style. I've recently been tinkering with box squatting using a safety squat bar on to 4" of foam on a low box, sink in and come to a complete stop releasing the hips but staying tight in the back, then try to power out of the hole. Very humbling. Remember the basic truth - Everything works, but nothing works forever.

Trainerterry wrote: The foam limits the jolt at the bottom.... but to get off of the foam after the pause is like moving in sand

Both true but the second half of that is my motivation. The first time I did it I could hardly believe how intensely it hits the glutes. You might not notice it that much while you do it (hell, you're struggling so hard just to get the f*ck up you won't notice much of anything), but you will know it the next day.

I have not done a ton of box squats, actually, just starting to use them more. Historically I was a wide(r) stance back squatter (in the 90's) and worked up to 500x8 with no belt at a bw of 230. Around 2000 I got knee surgery, and then switched to more front squats, and moved my stance in to become more "sports specific". I used a Poliquin plan in 2003 (via Jud logan) using 1 1/4 squats, single leg stuff etc, and my front squat finally topped 405 and back squatted 608x2 weighing 239. I was strong that year, but my throws were not very impresseve although consistant (65-67m everyday).

The next year 2004 (Oly year) I went back to more speed work, and ended up hitting 450 front squat at 240, but never went for the big back squat due to injury risk, but at this time I felt 660 (330k) was doable. Throws went MUCH better this year, as I averaged 68-69m with a PR of 72.26m. Maybe the base of strength and reduction of functional weaknesses carried over that year form the year before.

Recently (2005-2007) I had almost gotten away from back squats completely due to the low back strain in the low position, front squats allowed me to stay more upright and still get some good work in, and throw pretty far. I would use back squats every few weeks, and never worked up to over 510 in 3 years. My front squat hovered in the 365-420 area during this time. At this time I did not as much pulling (oly or otherwise) from the floor.

VERY recently (last 12 weeks) - I learned to box squat, which was very difficult to perform due to tight hamstrings from NOT back squatting or pulling much from the floor. (which is what I lived on 1994-2000). After a few workouts with the box squats my back loosened up, got stronger and hammies and am in better shape. I moved out my stance again in the back squat, which reduced forward knee travel (in my opinion reducing athletic carry-over) but packed on strength and size in my hips and thighs that I used to carry.

Now I am rotating many types of squats in a single month: single leg, front, back, box, zercher and even "front grunts" which are lockouts out of the 1/2 squat position (12" of the top of ROM) with weight up to 585lb. holding it one the shoulders clean / front squat style. This will freak out your system and cause you to stabilized the hell out of your torso. They were fun. This month I have hit PR's or near in 4 of the 6 methods. I do not like one specific style too much, because I think the body gets into a groove too much, and cannot do another movement. I have had a 1040lb. squatter not be able to hang with us in the single leg squats because of inbalances. He will get much better, and probably surpass us when he gets his quads stronger.

On a side note, I think there are TOO many people who are either:

"I box squat only" or "box squats suck and I wll never do them"

IMHO both are wrong. Box squat (and many other variations) are great for fixing specific weaknesses, but do not directly produce big throws. I have simply seen too many people who only box squat that cannot properly free squat, jump or throw at a high level.  (there are SOME that can, but I have seen more that can't).

OK, I am rambling now, and I have to go back to work. Good discussion. If you have read this far, thank you, and you probably need to get back to work too.

kover wrote: My good friend Craig and I had this talk on the way home from a game.  We decided that since your never really that deep when we throw that I should try higher box squats.  My box squats are about half squat position and that is a touch and go (as deep as we go in a throw)   my go is explosive.  I go upward as fast and explosive as possible.   I will use lighter wts and heavier loads depending on how I feel.  As a highland games thrower we are never as deep as we are in the full squat position.   THis would probably be about 6 inches above my normal squat

^^ Just goes to show that because i don't think box squats are that great, doesn't mean we haven't discussed and put together things including them in it.

I would say over the last 5 years or so, KO and i have logged more training talk time than most...

C. Smith wrote: kover wrote: As a highland games thrower we are never as deep as we are in the full squat position.   THis would probably be about 6 inches above my normal squat

I'm still working on over all strength ,obv, but while it's fresh:

Currently I'm Back & Front Squatting / Clean pulls( just short of catching) Deads & Push Presses.  Come spring would if be beneficial to include a half range squat?  I'm interpreting them previous posts to imply a box/bench squat may be more "sport specific".  I already planned on some plyo's, dots & drills.

Or should I just keep on keep'n on till I get to that 2 x bw plus level?  Even throughout the season due to the lack of strength & expierence

thanks in advance guys

-JS-