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HG attendance??

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phatmiked View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: HG attendance??
    Posted: 9/25/13 at 3:55pm
I originally posted in the AD forum, but was getting no love.   Cry

So, I'll post here and give a free TD shirt to whoever helps the most, as determined by . . . me.   Wink

Not sure if everyone knows this, but I am in my second tour of duty in College. I'm getting another degree to assist in starting over in a new career.  I am majoring in Sports Management with a minor in Exercise Science.

I am working on a project in my Sports Marketing and Promotion class and I am using the HG as my subject, of course.   haha

I am trying to develop some numbers on the level and range of spectator attendance at HGs throughout the country. 

Any help in determining these numbers would be greatly appreciated.  If you know of a resource which I can use, that's great.  If you can take a minute and let me know what the attendance has been at your games over the past couple of years your time and consideration will be greatly appreciated.

Hopefully the research will be useful to the HG community at some point in the future.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/25/13 at 4:15pm
http://renoutfitters.com/festivals/celtic-festivals-highland-games/

If you scroll down through it lists the attendance of some of the events

I miss you.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/25/13 at 4:31pm
http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/fairelist.html

Another one for ya!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/25/13 at 5:07pm
Thanks, Tony.

I'll make sure to get back up to the NE next year.

You're awesome . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duncan McCallum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/25/13 at 6:38pm
I'll get a headcount from Monroe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/27/13 at 2:38pm
bump

ok, i'll buy beer/scotch for whoever contributes the most . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote feefiefofeather Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/27/13 at 6:25pm
Mike, you are looking for attendance at games around the nation, correct?

If so, I recommend contacting Shannon-Hamlyn Burton. She did scorekeeping  for several of the games in Cali last year and this year, and should have lots of numbers for you. She's on Facebook but I can send you her email too if you'd like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Conway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/27/13 at 8:42pm
Mike,
That's an elusive number...most games either don't know or will try to inflate their numbers in an effort to attract sponsors. A score-keeper can tell you how many athletes competed but that's about it. I can give you ballpark numbers for some of our games but even Pleasanton believe it or not can never seem to come up with a concrete number. Most smaller games in CA would be somewhere in the 2- 5000 range, somewhere like Sacramento, probably 10-20,000 per day and Pleasanton approx. 20-30,000 a day. As far as I know Celtic has the biggest attendance... Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greynolds177 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/29/13 at 12:05am
I surveyed 48 Games in Scotland for my thesis in 2010 and 2-5,000 was the norm with less than a handful reporting averages in the 5000 - 10,000 with Braemar and Cowal (Pipe and Highland Dancing Championships) standing out with slightly more. I guess if you added a Heavy event to a Festival you could get some problems defining these shows a Highland Games but for the record  - if they don't have the big 4 essential events, Heavies, Pipe Bands, Highland Dancing and Solo Piping -  you should discount them. Steve's observations are spot on as usual. Games Committees are too busy talking up their Games in Scotland to step back and see why we have lost 20% of them since 2000.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9/29/13 at 12:08am
But you can fix Scotlands attendance problem right Gerry? thats what your here for right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WALLY.OLECIK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/13 at 6:04pm
Enumclaw usually attracts about 25,000 attendees (some years more.)  Usual breakdown is 15,000 on Saturday and 10,000 on Sunday.  This number includes everyone coming through the gates, ticket purchasers, volunteers, competitors, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/13 at 7:24pm
The attendance at the Celtic Classic is very high (hundreds of thousands).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WALLY.OLECIK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/13 at 8:22pm
Yeah, Wayne.  But isn't the Celtic admission free?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/13 at 8:25pm
Hundreds of thousands??  Wow. That's crazy.  Do they have a system to track the number of attendees??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugar Britches Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/13 at 7:15am
The police apparently do it the same way they do in DC for things on the Mall, grid photography.  Steve said 90k on Saturday and I heard 95k on Sunday, but not sure Sunday was as busy as Saturday.
 
Check with the folks at Association of Scottish Games and Festivals  http://asgf.org/ and see if they have numbers for member festivals.  I want to say it is part of the membership forms we submit.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wayne Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/13 at 7:17am
Admission to the Celtic is free (kind of has to be, since it's on city streets).  It's a different business model from most other festivals (food and beer sales using tickets), but a very successful one.

There's no way to track attendees, because there are many (wide open) access points and people come and go quite a bit. If you took aerial photographs, you'd get a (literal) snapshot of attendance (which I think they do), but there's a great deal of turnover. At 6:30 pm on Saturday,  it was so crowded you could barely turn around standing in place.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/13 at 7:00pm
One of the reasons our attendence could be down at P-town this event has been going on longer in the area when the move was made from Santa Rosa in 94. http://www.miramarevents.com/millbrae/event-details/quick-facts.html This is P-town's competition and is about 40 min away and it's free. Plus the Giant's or Oakland A's could be in Town and the 49er's and Raiders could be in town as well. Stanford University and Cal Berkeley are also doing football, all this is less than an hour from P-town. That is our competition, oh yes, I forgot this one as well http://kingsmountainartfair.org/  For us to get 30, 000 to 50,000 folks at $20 gate fee and $8 for parking that's a tough market. Not many games could survive that kind of competition around the country  year after year. Attendence is lower if P-town is 90+degree's for the weekend, heat stroke is not uncommon at the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greynolds177 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/13 at 8:24pm
Already becoming clear that you are not comparing like with like here. So many festivals at which the Highland Games elements are just one of the attractions. You have to be clear as to what a Highland Games actually is when you submit your research. It could be argued that an event that only has Heavy events is NOT a Highland Games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatmiked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/13 at 8:39pm
Good stuff!  I appreciate it.  Keep it coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robhatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/13 at 9:08am
Hey Mike, these are most of the games I have competed in the last 3 years... Hope this helps.

SMALL EVENTS- CITY/STATE      YEAR      APPROX ATTENDANCE
Ringgold HG - Ringgold, GA     2010-13     5,000
Alhambra HG - Pensacola, FL    2010        3,500 (1st yr.)
Shamrock HG - Springfield, IL 2012        2,000
Chieftains HG Rome, GA        2012        2,000 (1st yr.)
Ft. Boise HG   Boise, ID        2013          500 (1st yr.)
Twin Falls HG Twin Falls, ID   2013          300 (RAIN)
Culture Fest   Ontario, OR      2013        1,500

MEDIUM EVENTS
Panama City HG Panama City, FL 2010-12     10,000
Tallahassee HG Tallahassee, FL 2010        8,000
Smokey Mnt. HG Maryville, TN    2011-12     10,000 (2-day)
Arkansas HG    Batesville, AR   2012        10,000
Savannah HG    Savannah, GA     2012-13     12,000
Blairsville HG Blairsville, GA 2011-12      8,500
Payson HG      Payson, UT       2012-13     10,000
Treasure Valley Boise, ID       2012-13     10,000
Highland Fling Highland, UT     2013        5,000
Bitterroots HG Hamilton, MT     2013        8,000 (2-day)

LARGE EVENTS -
NE Florida HG - Jacksonville, FL 2011-13     50,000
Bay Area Ren - Fest Tampa, FL    2011-12     80,000 (several days)
Greenville HG - Greeneville, SC 2011-12     80,000
Stone Mnt HG - Stone Mnt. GA    2011-13    100,000 (2-day)
Dublin Irish Fest Dublin, OH     2012       150,000 (several days)
Las Vegas HG Las Vegas, NV      2013        80,000 (2-day)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Conway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/13 at 10:58am
Rob, I'm curious how you arrived at those numbers? I AD'ed Las Vegas for a number of years and I'm pretty sure they never had 80,000 people there...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Queen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/13 at 6:30pm
I too am curious Rob, how you arrived at your numbers.  In fact I think your numbers for Treasure Valley this year seem very "generous".  I also participated in that games, and there is NO WAY they reached Portland Attendance numbers.  Your Bitterroot HG number is also more than double what the Games Association itself has stated for Attendance (3,600 in 2011, 3,100 in 2012, 3,000 in 2013).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/13 at 1:34am
Their is no way in hell Las vegas is that big. Because if it was then they need to give the Pro's more money. The gate alone at $10 per person would be $800,000. There ain't no way. Sorry that's wrong. How many of those large games have a pro class? And with that kind of attendance they could well afford to have pro's. I don't believe any of those #'s. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greynolds177 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/13 at 3:15am
Part of my job is to advise dozens of volunteer event organisers every year ; so the direction this thread is heading re numbers is of great interest.

One of the hardest things to teach volunteer organisers is that (with the exception of sponsors) as highlighted above by Steve Conway ....BAD things happen when you inflate your attendance numbers before and after an event.

Here in the UK we refer to a guide published by the Health and Safety Executive known generally as "The Purple Guide". Contained within the guide are recommendations referred to by the various agencies that have to authorise events by signing them off before a Public Entertainment Licence is issued. 

If you want to drive up your costs pick a number that is 50% (for example) more than you expect to attend to make your event sound" impressive" and go visit your Town Hall.

You will be paying for more Police, Medical Staff, Stewards, Toilets, Cleaning, Venue Rental  etc. in advance. 

You cannot get that money back. 

And then, of course,  your caterers and vendors are going to be pissed off. 

You will also, in Highland Games land,  get Heavies wondering why your prize money is lower than they think you can afford to pay...... 

Just think about it .... if you inflate your attendance by 10% every year, in less than a decade it has doubled in size... and that is unsustainable nonsense.

For street events - we estimate our crowds via a formula of 2 people per square metre. We measure the street before the event and calculate a capacity.

 So I know that if Inverness High Street and Castle Street is a quarter full... I am looking at 1500 approximately. 

When we had the Olympic Torch Relay in Northern meeting Park it was 19500 "clicked in" with hand held crowd and  counters and an estimated 10,000 lining the route.

Finally, watch out for figures generated by the media. You may have a clueless reporter who has never left their desk and looked out of the window - make stuff up. Which becomes "fact" because it "was in the papers"


Trust me ...it happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/13 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by robhatch robhatch wrote:

Hey Mike, these are most of the games I have competed in the last 3 years... Hope this helps.

SMALL EVENTS- CITY/STATE      YEAR      APPROX ATTENDANCE
Ringgold HG - Ringgold, GA     2010-13     5,000
Alhambra HG - Pensacola, FL    2010        3,500 (1st yr.)
Shamrock HG - Springfield, IL 2012        2,000
Chieftains HG Rome, GA        2012        2,000 (1st yr.)
Ft. Boise HG   Boise, ID        2013          500 (1st yr.)
Twin Falls HG Twin Falls, ID   2013          300 (RAIN)
Culture Fest   Ontario, OR      2013        1,500

MEDIUM EVENTS
Panama City HG Panama City, FL 2010-12     10,000
Tallahassee HG Tallahassee, FL 2010        8,000
Smokey Mnt. HG Maryville, TN    2011-12     10,000 (2-day)
Arkansas HG    Batesville, AR   2012        10,000
Savannah HG    Savannah, GA     2012-13     12,000
Blairsville HG Blairsville, GA 2011-12      8,500
Payson HG      Payson, UT       2012-13     10,000
Treasure Valley Boise, ID       2012-13     10,000
Highland Fling Highland, UT     2013        5,000
Bitterroots HG Hamilton, MT     2013        8,000 (2-day)

LARGE EVENTS -
NE Florida HG - Jacksonville, FL 2011-13     50,000
Bay Area Ren - Fest Tampa, FL    2011-12     80,000 (several days)
Greenville HG - Greeneville, SC 2011-12     80,000
Stone Mnt HG - Stone Mnt. GA    2011-13    100,000 (2-day)
Dublin Irish Fest Dublin, OH     2012       150,000 (several days)
Las Vegas HG Las Vegas, NV      2013        80,000 (2-day)


loooooooooooool, no way these are even remotely accurate.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McSanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/13 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by Wayne Hill Wayne Hill wrote:

 
There's no way to track attendees <at Celtic Classic a free festival>, because there are many (wide open) access points and people come and go quite a bit. If you took aerial photographs, you'd get a (literal) snapshot of attendance (which I think they do), but there's a great deal of turnover. 

I will second this.  Moving from a $20 admission event to a free festival is a different beast and the turnover is much higher than a paid event.  (because they can come and go as they feel and there is not a need/desire to get "your money's worth") 

So you got to offer different things to keep the audience or keep them as long as possible so they buy food/water/beer that pays for the festival. 

Recent QC festival had one newspaper reporting 1,500 people and the other newspaper reported 5,000 people.  I would guess with turnover maybe the total attending may have pushed 3,500 +/- 500 but on the grounds at any one time, nor more than 1,200.  (The games is involved in a multi-festival event marketed by the visitor's bureau, so get a lot of turnover from the various other festivals.)  We do not track the attendance; we track units of beer/pop/water sold.

Originally posted by Steve Conway Steve Conway wrote:

That's an elusive number...most games either don't know or will try to inflate their numbers in an effort to attract sponsors. 
 

Also strongly agree.  I was told (from a committee member who went to some BS seminar on festivals) that you can knock off at least 15% from the attendance numbers. Having experienced skepticism from several sponsors who admit to discounting attendance numbers, I can say that their is some amount of discounting but how much is a different question.  


Mark McVey

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robhatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/13 at 2:56pm
Truly, I counted every person who walked through the gate....lol

I have no idea, these are just numbers I was either told or assumed...

I will just bow out and leave it to all you experts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Slow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/13 at 12:53am
Gerry a little off the topic we also have the volatility of the weather which can ruin a games. A few have been cancelled because if weather or a fear the weather could hit. I think Stonehaven and Montrose are recent examples. A have thrown at bute games for a number if years as it is an island games the whole island seems to turn up if its not chucking it down with rain. North America doesn't seem to suffer this issue as much. On another note Gerry what games being discontinued made the 20% drop in games being held.
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