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12 week "hypertrophy" program |
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will barron
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Topic: 12 week "hypertrophy" programPosted: 2/11/10 at 12:29am |
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I am looking at a program that has as its primary goal "max hypertrophy" in 12 weeks. It focuses on 6 rep max's and has alot of volume to it - like 6 x 6 and then finishing with 3 x 2 in the same workout - for like 5 different excercises. Can someone please tell me what the point of max hypertrophy might be besides big looking muscles? I have always thought that before I am ever able to really increase my 1 rep max significantly, that I would need to lay a big foundation and that maybe this might be that kind of foundation. I have decided that this year I will really try to set my weight room goals to be more long term and not lift only until throwing starts as in the past. I have thrown pretty much the same distances for the last 6 - 7 years in a row and have stayed pretty plateaued in the weight room. Thinking that not going right for the 2-4 rep squats, cleans and push press might be a good way to start... |
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Roy Bogue
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 12:42am |
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12 weeks!?!? I wouldn't do volume that long. Maybe 4-6 weeks.
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Donate lately?
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Wayne Hill
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 1:23am |
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There are two components to strength: what you might call muscle "protein cross section" (a term I just made up) and fiber recruitment.
The first includes a component of size, but the distinction needs to be made between sarcoplasmic and sarcomere hypertrophy. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is more or less how much you can blow up the muscle with liquid, while sarcomere hypertrophy is how much contractile fiber is in the muscle. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is a major factor in bodybuilding, but sarcomere hypertrophy is where peak strength and explosiveness come from. (This is a bit oversimplified, because volumizing a muscle with liquid can improve the muscle's lever arm and thus its strength). The other part is fiber recruitment, and this is a matter of genetics and training. Given a certain amount of muscle, by training (and genetics) you can gain a decent amount of strength by using all of the muscle fibers effectively. There are some great examples of this in the lower weight classes of powerlifting, weightlifting, and, well Highland Games. The problem with gaining strength this way is that it's very easy to lose it. Highly trained athletes can lose a significant fraction of peak strength in a matter of weeks. Anyway, everything's a trade-off in life and training, so hypertrophy has a definite place in HG training. I'm with Roy on a 12-week volume program not sounding right. There is an approach I know works for strength athletes, and that's Hypertrophy Specific Training. This web site is a bit of a mess (not at all well organized), but I suggest you take a look at it: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html |
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Pingleton
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 1:23am |
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Personally, I would alternate a volume program, which for a thrower I would generally consider anything from 5x5 at a constant weight to 3-4 sets of 8 reps at your top weight, with a higher intensity program every 3-4 weeks. Remember that volume is cumulative, so for pulls or even front squats you could choose to do a lot of sets of lower reps too, like 6 sets of 3-4 reps at your top weight (which will obviously be lower than your 3RM or 4RM). Also, the volume you noted does not seem crazy, but doing it for 5 exercises in one workout seems totally excessive to me. I would do something like that for 2 main exercises only. Another hypertrophy-oriented program you could try during the off-season is Poliquin's ADVANCED German Volume Training (NOT the standard version). See it here: http://www.wiredfitness.com/v2/articles/Exercise/Advanced%20 German%20Volume%20Training.pdf |
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dl_buffy
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 1:48am |
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Testosterone Nation has been pushing a new program they've developed. I actually like a couple of things about it. They aim it toward bodybuilders...but the vid seems to show decent weight...and I really like the focus on a faster rep vs grunting out a slow rep. The phase 1 tab at top as vid...they are filling out the other tabs on some kind of schedule. Wayne has a point with there being two kinds of 'visible' muscle size. The thing is you really need both of those for long term growth. You have to get the volumizing going to increase the nutrients going into your muscles. (Bodybuilders, and I was one, take it to extremes though, in effect stretching things out to hold more water.) I have found though...that just this winter...by focusing on my deads and a solid workout...I have put on 20lbs. It is not all fat...and I have started to trim some carbs and settled around 240lbs. This is heaviest and strongest I have ever been...and didn't follow any fancy routine really. |
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Silverback
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 2:01am |
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I like what Dorian used to do for size. Never heard of 6 x 6 bro.
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Mule
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dl_buffy
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 2:20am |
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Yates? He was a freaken monster...his bro was large too...that maybe somewhat genetics. :^)
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C. Smith
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 2:34am |
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I think you're always looking for something that will work or do this or that, when instead you should be consistent in the weight room for years if you want things to change. That's what I think.
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will barron
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 2:41am |
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well thats definitely true. I've asked everybody for ideas on the best program and have only ever given it 4-6 months before bailing so I can throw far. The only reason I'm considering this program is because the powerlifting/strongman moderators of the "Wannabebig" strength forum decided to choose 25 athletes and write a new program to put them all through and then advertise their results. I was asked to take part. the program is not 6 x 6 at 1 particular % of 1rep max. Here’s an example they offer with an ideal workout - Bar x 6 reps (warm-up) 350lbs x 6 (work set) Barely get the 6th rep. Rack the bar. Rest as long as you need before attempting 2 more reps, approx 30-60 secs. The idea is that it combines a heavy weight, with a light enough weight so that fatigue doesn't limit the volume, but one is still in that 80+% weight range to develop limit strength. the program author writes: The intensity/rep range where muscle growth is the primary effect is between 70% and 85% 1RM which is roughly 5RM to 15RM, we narrow this down further, by looking at motor unit recruitment etc to between 5 and 8RM.
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C. Smith
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 2:46am |
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I don't think any program you do is going to be detrimental, you just need to put the time in. You could be hyyoooooge.
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M-BAAB
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 3:00am |
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W - dedicate 4 weeks of effort and see where you are . Follow the entire program to the letter. Do before and after pics .etc. Nothing wrong at all w. doing new and different and adding muscle is always good.
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51 , 72 and 15 at 50
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=Travis=
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Posted: 2/11/10 at 3:53am |
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I agree with Craig, consistency solves a lot of the complaints people have about particular programs. Many people complain that a particular program didn't work for them and then start looking for something else after only being on the prior program for 2-3 months. (I'm talking generally, not at Will, I have no clue what his training looks like.) |
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Silverback
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Posted: 2/12/10 at 1:02am |
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Come to Alabama and train with me like Petur G did and you will be strong. Ask him.
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Mule
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Quint T Melius
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Posted: 2/12/10 at 9:18am |
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I did I lot of high volume thid summer and fall and ended up 6x6 about the time of halloween and it felt great. I went six weeks 6x6 on the big lifts and I saw results like I have never seen in my overal power. In my humble opinion nothing breaks up the routune and gets you ready for big gains better than an increase in volume.
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If you don't have time to do it right, when are you going to have time to do it over?
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phatmiked
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Posted: 2/13/10 at 6:43am |
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Wayne, the HST site is very interesting.
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The Jayster
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Posted: 2/15/10 at 4:30pm |
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i have read alot about sets/reps, and talked to some very knowledgable people and the concensus was that optimal rep range is 21-24 reps, give or take 1 or 2, 5x5, 6x4, 8x3. now not coming from a throwers background i'm not sure what will work for the games, westside template seems to be a popular 1 with alot of guys. i kind of agree with craig, get a program that feels good and give some time. everything works, nothing works 4ever! |
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please keep robbin, the Conway Family and Frank Henry
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jpluidl
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Posted: 3/10/10 at 11:46am |
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What you are talking about is the essence of periodization. In the old Soviet Union, athletes had training plans that spanned as far as five years into the future. These were broken down into yearly or sometimes 18 month periods, then broken down into smaller and smaller increments based upon specific goals. In military terms it's breaking down the strategic goal(s) into operational goals.
The program you are describing here would be one microcycle, say 8-20 weeks, within a macrocycle, possibly 12 months, within a mega cycle, up to five years. It's goal could be to increase levels of limit strength or speed strenghth depending on the particular lifts and percentages of max performed. Fred Hatfield promotes a similar system based upon the Soviets' peaking cycle, working up to 6x6 and peaking out at 2x2 with 100% of ones previous max for a 5% increase. This is an 80 day cycle. But it is preceeded by other foundation cycles.
For Highland Games, I use similar technique in the early part of year, prior to my pre-season goals and after a restoration period. As the Joker said, "It's all part of the plan."
As to your question about hypertrophy, remember there are different types. There's csytoplasmic hypertrophy on one end of the spectrum and myofribrillar on the other end. The former developes slow twitch, dark red muscle cells that are essentially full of jelly. The later develops fast twitch, white muslce cells that are densly packed, and also dense at a inter-cellular level. For purposes of power athletes, including highland games, myofibrillar hypertophy is what you are shooting for. Keep in mind that this is not a panacea. Hypertrophy type is linked to the conditioning of your stretch reflex. The Soviets see strength as a chain. With starting strength on one end and absolute strength on the other. Starting strength is best demonstrated by a sprinter or a base runner. Training percentages at 55%-65%
Speed strength is best shown by Olympic lifters and track and field throwers. Training percentages are 70%-75% Limit Strength is the realm of powerlifting. Training percentages 80%-85%
Absolute strength is best demonstrated by a person pushing on a two ton boulder as hard as they can. Max effort 90%-105%. The Soviets described this as lifting with full gear and steroids. It's important that you train with Compensatory Acceleration. In simple terms, using full force on each rep to move it through a distance as quickly as possible, while taking safety precautions to make sure you don't hurt yourself. |
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Sean Betz
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Posted: 3/12/10 at 9:32am |
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Hypertrophy is important in the off-season, or if you need to gain mass. Will, you don't seem to have that problem. Eating more calories is the majority of why a lifter gains muscle mass. Eating less calories is how lifters lose weight. I don't think it really has much to do with what sets and reps you do. You must train intensely, rest properly and progressively overload your workouts in some way. I think the program is fine because it is organized, has progressive overload of some sort, and is intense. Always remember that no off-season is ever long enough to gain the strength and explosiveness that you would want. Thats why you should get to it as soon as possible. If this workout does this for you,, then it is a good one. The only way to find out is do it.
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will barron
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Posted: 3/13/10 at 2:36am |
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yeah I bailed. I was overly optomistic about doing over 200 reps of movement per workout. I know what needs to be done to throw well this summer and fall and I have been doing it. "It" does not refer to d-bol by the way. 2010 all comes down to defending the World Team title. I will be ready and stronger. And 265.
tried my first cross fit class last night (just a trial...) was hard - but surprizing short. |
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C. Smith
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Posted: 3/13/10 at 2:41am |
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will barron
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Posted: 3/13/10 at 2:43am |
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Duncan McCallum
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Posted: 3/13/10 at 3:29am |
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Oh snap!
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The man in the arena.
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jpluidl
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Posted: 3/17/10 at 9:19am |
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I'd work in 6 week mini-cycles. 12 weeks is more of a full power cycle. I'd give Pavel Tsatsouline's version of the Smolov squat cyle a try. Marty Gallagher used this for both his bench and squat. It's a good off-season shock treatment. Basically it goes like this.
Week 1 Day 1 70% x 9 Rep x 4 sets Day 2 75% x 7 Reps x 5 sets Week 2 Day 1 80% x 5 Reps x 7 Sets Day 2 85% x 3 Reps x 10 Sets Week 3 & 4 Repeat + 10 lbs. Week 5 & 6 Repeat + 15 lbs. (Note, this is not 15 lbs. on top of the previous 10 lbs. increase. It is 15 lbs. above the original percentage.)
Do that for bench and squat. Throw in some nosebreakers, DB Overhead Presses and pullups on bench day at 4-6x6. Good mornings and ab work on squat day, heavy 5x5.
After this workout go back to 5x5 cycled up on your bench and squat and then do a heavy back day ala Gallagher as presented in his Purposefully Primitive for six weeks.
These are shock treatments, not to be repeated over and over. After this go back into a peaking cycles or your next preparation period. |
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Silverback
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Posted: 3/17/10 at 11:15am |
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What type of fiber do you have to wear in a cross fit class. Is that a lycra poly mix and are you a stripes or poka dot person?
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Mule
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Skullsplitter
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Posted: 3/18/10 at 1:59am |
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Thanks Myles. After reading your response I am now motivated to go throw this morning and follow that up with some heavy pulling.
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"I am the thread, the pupil, and the eye of the needle is my teacher"
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